This discussion has been edited for time and clarity.
Deanna
The ISTJ is not the most boring type. I would like to say, we’re not robots. That’s one thing that bothers me is when you watch the memes or whatever about the 16 personalities, ISTJ is always the robot. It’s always like, the person who’s kind of this mindless AI that doesn’t actually use their brain. I take issue with that. Now, I will say that people have called me a machine. But that’s different. Because I’m very productive. And I’ll take that as a compliment. But not a robot.
Joe Arrigo
You have Extraverted Thinking (Te) just like the INTJ in the second slot that is focused and has determined. It has a machine-like quality to it, definitely. I don’t think that that is just the ISTJ, it’s just really a symptom of being a solid extroverted thinker.
ISTJs are Not Robots
Deanna
I’ll give it as like, an aspect of my personality, but I feel like it’s blown out of proportion. And I guess that’s what memes are, right. Because I have layers, I have an actual personality. I’m not just like this boop, boop, boop, bop robot. And I mean, I can have fun, I can be playful. I can do all those things. Granted, I’d like to schedule fun, I like to say, at this time of this day is when I’m gonna go have fun. But I plan it in because I appreciate and I know the value of having fun.
Joe Arrigo
And you can be fun, you like to schedule many different things. You have an eclectic taste of things you like to do like outdoor activities and different kinds of media you like to consume. For those that classify the ISTJ in a very humorous way as not having a sense of humor or being kind of like a party pooper, that is just not been my experience being married to you.
Deanna Arrigo
You’re saying I’m fun?
Joe Arrigo
I’m saying you can have fun.
ISTJs and Tradition
Deanna
The other thing that I take issue with is that they always talk about how we uphold tradition. That whatever has been done, we will continue to do. and I understand where that comes from. I take issue with it because it kind of implies that we blindly follow the rules. I don’t think that’s what we do. If it’s something that doesn’t make sense to me, like, I don’t care how long you’ve been doing it this way. We’re going to improve it, we’re going to fix it, we’re going to optimize it, we’re going to make it more efficient.
Joe Arrigo
Yeah, I don’t really have much more to add to that.
Deanna
One thing I will say that is correct when people describe the ISTJ is that we are structured. And I think the reason behind it is that, to us, “Discipline is Freedom.” If you give us guidelines, and you say, I need you to get XYZ done, and here’s your map, here are your boundaries, we’re happy with that.
Discipline
Whereas a lot of other people, if you give them boundaries, they feel confined, they feel restricted, they hate it, they get rebellious, and they break all the rules. For us, we say, ‘please give us all the rules, we’ll follow them.’ If you are very vague about something and you say, I need you to do this, but I don’t really care how it’s done, to us, it’s a heart attack. ‘I don’t know what you want. I don’t know where to start’.
How to Speak to an ISTJ
Joe Arrigo
Advice for speaking to an ISTJ would be if they were going to come over to your house, or they were going to arrive somewhere, you would never say something like, ‘you know, just show up in a little bit. Or something like, “Hey, I’m on my way over, do you want me to get anything from a store while I’m on my way over? Yeah, “just get whatever you think is right.”
This is NOT good direction! ISTJs are wondering, “Do you want me to bring drinks, food… WHAT?” There are too many unknowns in the scenario. There is no framework here are guidelines to work within. The structure of your request leaves too many options on the table.
Deanna
And comfort is a huge thing for ISTJs for kind of two aspects. Physical comfort:I don’t want to be uncomfortable in the clothes I’m wearing, for example. So always make sure the clothing I wear is functional and not really flashy. And then there’s also mental comfort, which is what you were getting at. You’re going to cause me so much strife if you don’t give me enough guidelines. So if I know what’s coming, and I know what to expect, and a path forward, that’s my mental comfort.
Joe Arrigo
She’s really talking about the axis of Introverted Sensing (Si) and Extraverted Intuition (Ne). The Ne part is a mental discomfort when there are too many options, too many alternatives, too many different outcomes. This can cause rigidity and paranoia for an ISTJ and lead them to short-circuit.
Deanna
I want to know, what are the truths and untruths about ISTJs?
The Truth about the ISTJ
Joe Arrigo
One of the truths is not understanding subtlety. And that comes across a lot in jokes. The worst thing I can do is to do deadpan humor, or to say something in jest or sarcastically. It’s very confusing for the ISTJ because they will take you at face value. They’re very confused: ‘Was that a joke? Were they being mean? What did I miss?’ Should I laugh now?’
Another thing is that Thinking types tend to have a very non-expressive face when they’re listening or when they’re gathering information. And I’ve described your face all the time as the ‘Mona Lisa face.’ It’s overused, this idea of the resting RBF, but I think that’s just Thinking types are not trying to portray emotion. And I think people, especially dominant Feeling types, might look at the ISTJ and go, “oh, there’s the robot.”
Mona Lisa ISTJ face
One misconception that I’d like to dispel is that ISTJ can actually be good brainstormers. It doesn’t always come across in the negative way that inferior Ne might which is catastrophizing. They’re optimizers they can say, “I see your idea and here’s how we make it cohesive. The ISTJ will use their Si (Introverted Sensing), to keep you on track using Memory.
ISTJs are Optimizers
Deanna
It works for me because I’m happy that you came up with the idea. If someone told me to come up with the idea… Nope! But when the idea is already there, I can say, “Okay, this is how we make it more efficient.”
Joe Arrigo
Another thing about the ISTJ is that they’re good public speakers. Not dynamic per se, but not afraid of delivering in front of large crowds. You do presentations, you do pitches. You would think that introverts are not naturally comfortable in that setting. You’re not scared of being out of order when you speak or getting jumbled in your mind. So I think that really comes across well, for the ISTJ and any Extraverted Thinking (Te) + Introverted Sensing (Si) type that yes, ISTJs are solid public speakers.
ISTJs can be good presenters
Deanna
I am proud to be an ISTJ! We’re hard-working, we’re determined, okay, I get that. But also, because of that, we’re dependable and loyal. We’re really good loyal friends, you can count on us. We will show up, we’ll be there. You know, we’re just solid. And I think that’s a positive thing. And the memes portray it as boring and dependable. But I think it’s good, fun, happy, AND dependable. And I would say we’re far from boring people.
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An ISTJ educates the audience on how to deal with an INTJ significant other
Transcript edited for time and clarity
Joe Arrigo
The subject of our conversation is why the INTJ is the worst spouse. So that’s me (the INTJ). So the first question I think I want to know is, what about me as the INTJ makes you the most aggravated?
Deanna
Okay, and this is from an ISTJ perspective, so you have to consider that. But one thing that really bothers me about INTJ is that they’re not detail-oriented. So underdeveloped when it comes to paying attention to detail, it’s very aggravating. So, for example, you just can’t be bothered…if I tell you, hey, the dishwasher needs to be loaded XYZ in a specific order… I’ll give you a reason, because as an ISTJ, I would want that reason, I figured the discussion’s over, we’re good. But it would probably take you three to four times doing it before it would stick.
Joe Arrigo
It’s not like I don’t want to do a good job. It’s just that as you start to do something physical, I just drift back into my own head sometimes. And then I’m like, ‘Oh, I don’t remember anything she told me about the specifics of the task.’ So all I heard was ‘do the dishes and then everything else I forgot.’
Deanna
It originally was so puzzling to me before I really understood MBTI. Because, as an ISTJ, details matter so much so that if you get the details right, then the big picture comes together. They add up and you get the big picture. But as an INTJ, for you, it’s opposite. You think big picture and you say, ‘all those details, they’ll be filled in later.’
Joe Arrigo
Yeah, the picture is what matters, the grand scheme. And then because that seems to be clear in my head, the details will naturally fill themselves in later. It’s just like, as long as I can see it, all the other details fill themselves in. And that’s why I can see myself being annoying to you at first, once you first get in a relationship with an INTJ. So what would you say took you the longest to understand about me?
Deanna
I like to just soak up the sun and move my body, go hiking, kayaking, anything that’s outside, and getting fresh air. And for you, you’re never really were interested in that at all. If I were to ask you what your ideal day would be, what would you say?
Joe Arrigo
It would just be sitting reading a book all day. Ideally, it’d be raining outside and it’d be cozy, and I’d be inside next to a fire.
Deanna
This is how I finally came to understand why you want to be home and read all the time, is that knowledge is power for you. And you can’t ever get it all, you’re always trying to get more and more you’re in search of that. And anything that gets in the way of you obtaining more knowledge just seems frivolous.
Joe Arrigo
It does seem frivolous. But when I coach INTJ, or NT types, I’ve realized the value of experience that is not directly related to knowledge, like book knowledge. You need the knowledge of different environments, different sensory experiences. So this has been one of my biggest goals is to break out of the mindset that I if I’m not acquiring textual knowledge, that’s a bad thing. It’s not a bad thing. How do you think we get along so well, then?
Deanna
I think it’s because we’re so independent. I always tell people being married to you is like taking care of a very old cat, as I can just, I can leave all day and leave you at home all day and not feel guilty. Because I know that you’re just gonna pick up a book, you’ll entertain yourself. Because we’re both independent, we can give each other space, and then come back together.
I feel like you’re really good at having faith, like you just know this thing is gonna work out. Whereas for me, I’m always worrying about what’s gonna go wrong. And I’m always sitting around thinking, how can I mitigate it? Does it excite you if you get to do things you’ve never seen before? For me, it worries me, makes me nervous.
Joe Arrigo
Yeah, but it’s not one of my best functions, either, which is Extraverted Intuition, Ne, or what we could call Brainstorming. It’s fun, but I’m not good with scenarios that are outside of something I can see how this would end up.
But my worst trait is literally your best trait, which is Introverted Sensing (Si) or Memory. People that know me would say I can be very forgetful about certain details that we’ve just talked about. That’s where you come in… “Don’t forget” or “Remember last time you tried that?” Thus the ISTJ makes very few mistakes, or rather, does not repeat past mistakes.
Deanna
My memory is practically etched in stone. Like you said, it’s linked to my sensing and my emotions and if something made me feel a certain way, I can remember that, and I’ll never do it again or I’ll always do it from now on.
Joe Arrigo
Introverted sensation is very keenly aware of the sensations within the body. Whereas me an INTJ, I could say, push through being hungry. I’m not going to focus on my internal self, because I’m pushing through to my goal, which is kind of like the laser focus of the INTJ.
Whereas you’re really good at knowing where you’re at internally, we neglect all internal feeling for goals we’ve set, whether they’re realistic or fantasy land goals. So as an ISTJ, Deanna, what is some advice you can give to the audience for dating or being married to an INTJ?
Deanna
You have to be able to give them so much space. Give them space to do all their thinking and let them be independent. If you’re someone that is codependent it probably won’t work being married to an INTJ. I feel like it’s kind of your duty as their spouse or their significant other, to bring them back down to earth.
Literally pull them back down to earth and be like, ‘Hey, get out of your head,.’ Take them on a walk. “Hey, do you see those birds over there? Look how small they are? Do you hear them chirping? See the flowers?” Get them to develop their sensing abilities. Because they’re always in their head.
Joe Arrigo
Yeah! Extraverted Sensing (Se) is what the INTJ is really neglectful of. It’s the actual experiential, what-is-happening-in-front-of-your-face-right-now aspect. When we’re on a walk, my wife will point out something like, “Don’t you hear the birds…Look at that pretty flower.”
If you’re walking by something that’s very colorful, and you are thinking about the next 10 years, are going to be crazy, that’s probably not the best thing for you to be doing at that time. Especially when you’re in nature seeing something beautiful, you gotta be focused on what is in front of you. So yes, that is a very good point there.
Deanna
If you’re going to be married to an INTJ, don’t tell them what they should be doing. That really, really bothers them. I try to avoid that. But just realize, they can see the future so much, that it’s almost insulting to tell them, ‘you should be doing this. It’s like, ‘No, I’m gonna follow my intuition, I’ve got this.” Don’t tell them what they should be doing.
Joe Arrigo
That’s really interesting. Because we both have Extraverted Thinking (Te)— Action, Effectiveness, whatever you want to call it — in our second slot. I want… what’s the best thing? What’s the most direct? What’s the action I can take now to do that thing I’m thinking of? But it’s totally used in a very different way. When I come to you with an idea, your first thought is, ‘Joe’s coming to me with something I need to solve.’ And it’s not always the case. I’m asking you just to talk with me about it. But you’re looking at this as a puzzle, and are going to give your input.
Deanna
I instantly jumped to the details of how to fix it right right away, and you’re like, “Hey, I just want to talk about my big ideas with you.” So, to find that delicate balance is kind of tough. I would say the last advice, if you’re going to choose to marry an INTJ, you have to realize that a lot of times your job is just to be their anchor, their support system.
Because they like to think about all these big ideas, they might be implementing a lot of outside-the-box things that I’ve never seen that before. And that makes me uncomfortable! And so if you’re going to be married to an INTJ, or date an INTJ, be comfortable with then operating that way, because they’re going to keep at it.
Joe Arrigo
One thing that someone dating an INTJ can learn to develop is to humor them. You don’t necessarily have to believe 100% in their conspiracy ideas, but you have to be like, ‘Okay, well, I guess I could see that… Yeah, like, tell me a little bit more.” You don’t have to always be like pushing back against them. “Can’t I just tell you my crazy idea?”
Deanna
And also just don’t just put their ideas out like a fire, right? That won’t work. You know, that’s not what they want at all.
Joe Arrigo
Right. I think that’s where the arrogance comes in with the INTJ. The idea of, “you just can’t understand me”, which turns to, “no one can understand me, only I can understand myself.” And then you get into this ivory tower of hyper-intellectualism.
Deanna
Yeah. So just find a spouse that’ll anchor you!
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Interview with AsuraPsych – Edited for time and flow
Joe Arrigo
In Western society, we seem to have, in my mind, a hierarchy of types. And basically what I’m saying is that those that succeed, make the most money, rise to the top of corporations, the government, really lean heavily into extroverted thinking or Te. But as a thought experiment, what do you think society would look like if we just inverted that pyramid? So we’d have our introverted feelers (Fi) at the top, and extroverted thinkers (Te) in a different spot. How would it look? I’d love to have another INTJ run wild with that.
AsuraPsych
I think you can almost see that when you look at certain countries like Sweden, for example, are very introverted by nature. I think a lot of those countries tend to focus more on things like culture, because they’re, their support systems support them enough so that they don’t have to be in competition with each other. And people who are in fields like art and music and production can succeed more easily, without being detrimental to them to not do so. Because I think like in Western societies, it’s detrimental to attempt to be some sort of artists because the society doesn’t provide ways for them to be living by doing so.
Joe Arrigo
I’ve never thought about extroverted thinking in the sense of like, the first thing that comes to mind is NOT competition. But I guess, thinking the way you said it, it sort of just naturally lends itself to competition.
AsuraPsych
I think the extroverted thinkers are the ones who are the most aware of general competence hierarchies, and they are the ones who want to climb them if possible, especially the Te doms. You look at Te dom’s, and they’re the ones racing to get promotions at work. And there is value there in like, you know, you get more money, and there’s stuff like that, but I think the rank and achievement of it, is what pushes them as well.
Joe Arrigo
Okay, then success in the Fi dominant is…? I mean, it would be hard to define success broadly across society with Fi would it not?
AsuraPsych
Right. And because I think the thing you notice with Fi alot is they tend to have this attitude of ‘I respect my way of doing things when it comes to like, right and wrong.’ They, for the most part, respect other people’s ways of doing things as long as it’s not interrupting their way of doing things.
Joe Arrigo
In my coaching I’ve not coached any ISFPs or INFPs. Closest is ENFP. They do tend to really gravitate towards personal development, things like that. So it’s I’ve not dealt with an Fi dom yet. Have you?
AsuraPsych
Yeah, I find that INFPs are one of my more frequent types I’ve worked with– maybe one or two ISFPs. But their problems are always very similar in my experience, and it’s that they have this kind of unconscious value for extroverted thinking, but they really struggle to do it. And an extremely common thing is they try to start their own businesses because they think they need to achieve success. And then they’re miserable. ‘I don’t want to be in this business, I’m not happy with what I’m doing.’ And it’s like, well, what would you be doing if you could do anything you want?
Joe Arrigo
As we know, there are tons of different models within the MBTI community. We have cognitive functions model, Beebe model, socionics, objective personality, Keirsey Temperaments. What is the model that you personally follow?
AsuraPsych
It is a little bit of a Frankenstein’s monster as much as I wish it wasn’t because on a personal level, I like the idea of Jung’s Eight Types the most, because I personally think of the second and third function as the two auxiliary functions instead of the auxiliary and the tertiary. But I think that the Briggs 16 types is the best way to classify the types. And it’s just the one that everyone knows at this point. In the terms of the theory, I like Jung’s original work, but in terms of the classification, I very much like the Briggs 16 types.
Joe Arrigo
How do you keep coming up with content that you find interesting, but also that your audience is also going to be interested in?
AsuraPsych
I do have video suggestions like from my Patreon, people can suggest videos. And then in my Discord server, I have a place where people can suggest videos. I’m very much a spark of madness type of person, when it comes to my ideas. Having the idea I need to do something with it before I run out of time or just sits there for too long. So if I have those ideas, I want to make the video as soon as possible, I want to do something with it.
Joe Arrigo
So you and I would be considered part of the New Guard. What are we supposed to do to make MBTI attractive? Because it’s kind of viewed as like, old? “Oh, I’ve done that test… I did it 20 times before…we’ve had so many people come into our company and do it…” So what are we supposed to do about that?
AsuraPsych
I’ve been pushing for this idea that I don’t think that MBTI needs to be seen as a science to be valid. I love to describe MBTI or just personality typology in general as a ‘philosophy of psychology’ instead of a science of psychology. And I think that’s how Jung viewed it as well. He was saying that this is the way in which humans most likely conceptualize the things that they interact with, how they process information, etc. And then we can better understand ourselves and others through these models of understanding.
Big Five is great, great that it’s scientific, it’s quantitative. What does it do for you? You know, that’s where it ends. What is Big Five doing for you as an individual? Have you changed your personality or behavior because of Big Five? 90% of people are going to say no, just because it doesn’t really do the same things that MBTI does.
I think it was harmful for psychology in the long run, because we’ve gotten to the point where we forgot that psychology is about humans. And if we look at psychiatry, compared to psychology, psychiatry, is more along the lines of, ‘well, this thing worked for 78% of people. So therefore, if you have this issue, we’re going to use x solution because it worked for 78% of people.’ The other 22% of people are out of luck.
Joe Arrigo
That is a tragedy! So Asura, I could ask you to describe yourself and you’d probably say: analytical, conceptual, more of a wallflower, stuff like that. And then I’d say, ‘Well, the way that I would classify that is INTJ. Then people go, “No, I’m not! I’m an ESFP, or I can be anything I want, I don’t like these labels!!” But like, if you describe your friend over there, you would assign labels.
AsuraPsych
We categorize everyone. That’s just how we work as humans.
Joe Arrigo
So then I try to go well, there is a 16 type model that also labels that as well… What’s wrong with that? And they go, “I don’t want to be labeled.” We have this illogical fear of being in a certain category.
AsuraPsych
Right? And it’s so weird, especially because in the past two or three years, things like race and identity have become so huge because now we’re labeling everything! And people still talk about MBTI like they’re afraid of having a label. There’s a middle ground somewhere where you don’t have to BE the label. But it’s there to help you in some aspect.
Joe Arrigo
I’m actually just gonna lean into the box and say, “Yes it’s a box, but it’s a 5000 square mile box and it will take you your entire life to navigate – as Jung said – you’ll never integrate all the parts of your personality so don’t worry about being in this ‘box.'”
AsuraPsych
I think you could go through life without Type just fine, but I think it is such a useful tool for people who do use it and find out the right ways to use it.
Joe Arrigo
Interestingly I don’t think I know more than one ESFP. I think they’re rare. But apparently, INTJ is more rare, but I don’t come across ESFPs ever.
AsuraPsych
Yeah, I actually have an opinion on this. I think that when they were norming the MBTI studies, it was done before the internet was in place. And therefore, there were less intuitives involved in the kind of process of when they were going out interacting with individuals. Now intuitives are a dime a dozen, you can’t walk five feet without running into them. And they think that they’re only 30% of the population, I think they probably are closer to 40-45%. And that the difference nearly as big as people think.
Joe Arrigo
That’s a hot take! When I present type at a very high level, I always use what David Keirsey observed which was around 75/25 Intuitive vs Sensing, as it was though we mostly have a Sensor society.. So you’re saying it’s more like 60/40, or even higher?
AsuraPsych
Yeah, I just think that the intuitives, back then, they were more reclusive in their interests, essentially. But now the internet exists. And it’s no longer weird to be weird. So they come out of their cages, and they’re happy to show themselves and do things and interact with others, and they have a safe place to do so. And it’s one of those things where like, I do believe that the intuitives are a little bit more rare.
From like an evolutionary standpoint, that makes sense. Because you know, the intuitives are the ones who are going to be more risky are going to leave camp to go looking for new things to do and they’re more likely to get eaten by bear. But now that we have things like the internet, it’s no longer dangerous to be intuitive.
Joe Arrigo
Asura, take it easy, and I appreciate you coming on the show.
Joe Arrigo interviews the incredibly talented ESFP YouTube sensation Dear Kristin
Transcript edited for length and content
Extraverted Sensing for the ESFP
Joe Arrigo
Kristin, as we know, ESFPs are objectively the worst type. Can you dispel some of the rumors and tell us why ESFPs are the best?
Dear Kristin
Generally speaking, people tend to think that were very ditzy, attention-seeking, or self-centered and you understand where that’s coming from because we run with our Se function which means that generally, we don’t have that inner monologue going on in our head. It’s not that we’re particularly selfish– all the types can be selfish– it’s just that it’s more obvious when we’re having self-centered or attention-seeking behavior.
ESFP from 16personalities.com
Joe Arrigo
That’s what drew me to you’re amazingly fast-growing Youtube channel that’s basically how the 16 types do [fill in the blank] and it’s exactly what I think the community needs at this point….something that we discussed in like the pre-show was people may not be aware that the INTJ myself and the ESFP have the exact same top four cognitive functions but they’re just in a slightly different order. But if you were to see us in the wild you would not necessarily put any of that together. We couldn’t be more different!
Every video is a must watch!
Dear Kristin
It’s so uncanny how true I find the cognitive functions to be in daily life.
ESFPs and Relationships
Joe Arrigo
What does an ESFP need in a relationship? And I’m talking about in a partner, not necessarily like a friend or colleague, but in a partner?
Dear Kristin
In a partner, the number one thing that an ESFP needs is to be given the freedom to experience things, because that is a function that I can’t stress enough. It’s literally just like, in the same way that the Ne is all about, like, let’s just explore ideas for the sake of exploring ideas. Like it’s not going anywhere, we just want to explore it, right? It’s the same with us. We want to experience and gather literally, for the sake of experiencing like, I’m the kind of person who I’ll be driving down the highway, and I’ll have my music blaring, and I’ll see a truck coming. And I’ll roll down my window just so I can feel the wind of the truck going faster on the highway, like that. Sounds like thrill-seeking, but that’s kind of like what it’s like, you know if I’m doing that I’ll arrive at my destination, and I’ll feel happy. And I’ll feel full of life because I’ve had it like I’ve fed my Se for the day.
Se expression
So in relationships, we really need to feel like that’s understood and that we can go and have the freedom to go and experience things… but not like toxic things or unhelpful things. And that’s just what it is like, we just get joy from being at an experiencing, and enjoy. And the upside of that is like, well, first of all, you’re gonna have a lot of fun. But second of all, when we’re with you, like, you have our full attention, because we’re so about what’s immediately in front of us. 100% if we feel trapped in any way, like, if there are those expectations of how often you need, like how often we need to text you or how often we need to call you or how often, you know, we need to see you. And those expectations are being forced on us, we’re not going to want to stay in that relationship.
What does an ESFP wear?
Joe Arrigo
For someone that does skits like yourself, you have a crap ton of wardrobe changes. One, do you spend an inordinate amount of time trying to figure out what am I going to wear? And do you have to, like buy new clothes?
Dear Kristin
I set up my camera and then I go to my wardrobe and I get out 16 outfits. So it’s kind of on a whim, but they all laid out on my bed just to make it easier or like wherever is nearby. I have thought about just implementing just one outfit for the ESFP for every video, but then that’s assuming that I would have the diligence to like, remember and keep track of all those outfits. This is why I love talking about type because like, everyone has their own spectrum of type experience with certain…I have INTJ is in my life that I cannot be more different than, but there are like certain things that are pillars of being an INTJ that I feel are a defining factor. And some of the other things might be a little bit nuanced. One of my biggest crusades is that… all the types can be terrible and be really good. It’s like, ‘oh, the INFJ have a heart of gold. It’s like, Well, there are a lot of bad INFJs in life. So it’s like, you shouldn’t think that there are better types, even though personally, I have had some bad experiences with certain types that might jade my view.
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Joe Arrigo interviews ENTP Marina Krivonossova about being controversial, LinkedIn, and human trafficking
ENTP Personality Type Online
Joe Arrigo
Marina, you know what is hilarious? When I was describing what personality type I thought you were… I said I thought ENTP. Because I mean, you are a controversial kind of… I wouldn’t say argumentative, but your persona online screams ENTP. And then immediately you were like, “Nope, that’s not me. I don’t argue with people at all.” HA! and I was like, “uhhh that’s exactly what they do! They argue; they’re debaters. So I know that you and I have kind of gone back and forth with whether personality type is real or not. But in terms of you liking to challenge the status quo or whatever the norm is online or on LinkedIn, does that do you feel that matches you?
Marina K
I think the most important thing for me is being true to myself. And I kind of I kind of always want other people to be true to themselves. And a lot of time online and on LinkedIn, people are very clearly trying to preach to the choir, they’re trying to, you know, virtue signal all of that. And when I see that I get a specific result, you know, randomly and you’re like, “Well, no, no, you’re definitely THAT I’m like, but how well do you know me? How many times have we talked on the phone? How many times have I shared my life story?” So it’s those assumptions. So as much as I’m authentic, I’m not posting my life 24/7, and you can draw conclusions based off the posts, you see, I mean, some of it will be true. But a lot of it will be tied in with the assumptions you make.
Writing Content, Copywriting, and Creativity
Joe Arrigo
Yes, yes, absolutely. I have a great working relationship with many ENTPs and it’s funny because there is another interview I did with Camille Trent, she’s a copywriter, she’s an ENTP. And she has… there seems to be a controversial way that they’re always challenging something. What’s the deal there? There has to be a trend with that personality that gets into marketing/copywriting because part of marketing has to somehow be provocative, don’t you think?
Marina K
No, absolutely. Writing, you know, it’s fueled passion, whether it be negative or positive, there’s always something behind it. So I can definitely imagine that more argumentative people are more prone to writing because, I don’t know, I feel like expressing your thoughts and emotions goes hand in hand with creativity.
What is a good LinkedIn Strategy?
Joe Arrigo
What is your LinkedIn strategy?
Marina K
It started with me literally planning everything I would over the course of a week, I would write things in my email draft, because it felt easier to keep things there. And I would be like, Okay, at this time, I’m going to post every day, every other day, whatever. But I realized that my posts still weren’t performing consistently. Sometimes they’d really take off, other times, you know, five likes, and they pop. So I just kind of realized that I shouldn’t treat it so much like a job. I just started posting what’s on my mind what I’m thinking. And because I like to believe that all my writing is creative, my marketing is creative, that all ties back into what I do. So I think at this point, I just kind of write about what feels right in the moment and people seem to like it. so far. So good,
Joe Arrigo
As a provocateur, do you ever delete a post that gets too much hate?
Marina K
I have not. I’ve honestly deleted posts. If they didn’t perform as well as I thought, I know that’s, that’s ridiculous. You can judge me for that. But I posted things. And an hour later, I have like 100 views and two likes, and I’m like, wow, I really messed up today. And I could just delete it and pretend it never happened. But in terms of reactions, no, I don’t delete it. I never post things that I find to be bad. But if something’s controversial, and people feel a certain way, they can discuss, I might stop responding. If I feel like it’s getting very accusatory, or if they’re just, you know, going through the ad hominem attacks, but I won’t delete a post, you know, if you have something to say, go ahead and say it, your boss is gonna see it, your mom’s gonna see it, your kids are gonna see it. That’s not for me to deal with.
Fighting Human Trafficking
Joe Arrigo
We had kind of discovered that we align on the philanthropic side of our lives. We both support anti-human trafficking initiatives. And recently, one of the campaigns I implemented was a 5% donation of every poster sold to anti-human trafficking organizations and fighting Big Porn and all that. So how did you get involved without as well?
So when I got into my undergraduate studies, I initially wanted to study economics. That’s what interested me most. But to diversify, I kind of decided, you know, I’ll try an international relations class, you know, nothing to lose. I’m like, 19, you know, all my years of school ahead of me. And we had a lecture, we talked about human trafficking. And I went to school in Southern California, you know, you very much see yourself as living in this developed advanced place where this shouldn’t be an issue. But she really revealed to, you know, me and everyone else, that human trafficking is a huge thing in the developed world. It’s not just something like in the distant lands that you never hear of, it’s very much real, and around us in the US, in California, and all those big cities. And I was like, oh, wow, that’s a serious problem. So that’s how I ended up doing that. And I went to do my masters in the Netherlands, and writing, I was writing my thesis on anti human trafficking policy in the Netherlands, and the failures and successes thereof. So, that’s kind of where I’m at now. And I’d like to pursue work in that field later on as well.
Joe Arrigo
God, there’s so many NGOs out there. There’s so many causes, and I’m always skeptical of causes, but this this is probably one that I’m really on board with especially because there’s two things that are tied together: human trafficking and porn. And they’re the same thing, basically. So like, it is definitely going to affect our, my generation, your generation, and then even younger, so we have to do something about it. It’s just doesn’t get as much attention as the environment, even though it’s directly affecting people way more right now.
Marina K
Yeah, no, that’s, that’s another thing that always bothered me, because, you know, taking this class in college, I was so shocked that like, you know, this is so prevalent in strip clubs in the US, and I started Googling it. And there are articles about trafficking was happening in Los Angeles, in San Francisco, just everywhere in the big cities. And I was like, why do I never see this? Why don’t ever hear about this? This is such a big deal affecting people, you know, of all ages, a lot of minors as well.
Joe Arrigo
Yep. So yeah, I don’t know what the exact plan is, but there’s a lot to go on that. I like how this conversation has just gone like ENTP, marketing, TRAFFICKING!??
Marina K
You know, it be like that sometimes you know?
Joe Arrigo
It really does. it really does. I think our relationship has just been really funny. I just, I was like, I kept seeing your stuff. And I was like, this person, like, really kind of poking the bear, I kind of ruffling feathers. And I’m like, this is awesome.
Marina K
Everyone’s writing about the exact same thing. And you know, something happens in the news, there’s an election and people just write these vague, emotionless, non-partisan posts. And you’re the 14th person I’ve seen do this today. What’s the point? I don’t know, I find that boring. I like people who want to stand out. But if you’re really sharing your opinion, you’re sharing your stance. And if you back it up with facts, and you know, you’re being civil and polite, why not? I mean, that’s how we learn if we just all have the same opinion and never want to disagree. What’s the point? We’ll never get anywhere.
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What are some ways you have learned to be a good manager as an ENTP. And I might add ENTP female, because that’s different than an ENTP male. Just want to point that out.
I would say the first bit of wisdom from an ENTP manager is our ability to recruit and thinking about recruiting all the time. You know, a lot of people like to think they can do everything on their own, the thing that I’ve learned is, I can’t, in fact, I can do very little on my own, I like to think of myself as more of a conductor or a fairy godmother. So something with I have a stick in my hand, but I don’t want to beat you with it, I want to create magic with it, okay, I want there to be an orchestra, I want to find the best tuba player, the best violinist, and I want them to create beautiful music together. So as a manager, I’m constantly looking for the best people, I’m not typing them right away, I’m looking for the best person for the job. And then I use type to then help manage them. So once they become you know, I’m hiring them. And usually, in the hiring process, I will ask their type to set of curiosity if they know it. Usually, in the first interview, if they don’t know it, no big deal, I’m not gonna push them into taking a test before I hire them, I literally look for the best people. So my first word of wisdom is to hire the best people, type them and then come to them as who they are, and not try to pick people based on type. Now, I only want this type of manager, whatever you will find there are people who tend to be better at certain jobs. And that will just naturally happen. If you’re picking the best people, you’re going to find that the type cluster.
Yeah, the second word of wisdom, as an ENTP manager is like organization and delegation, it can be a huge challenge for ENTPs. Oftentimes, you want to just do it ourselves, our T, extroverted thinking, as many of you know, is in the slot, which is the Witch/Senex slot, as they would say, and how I find that coming out is like, sometimes I’ll be like, hey, you’re an idiot, because you don’t know how to do this, you know, and so you become condescending, or a witch. And as a female manager, the worst thing you can do is come off as a witch because you get that label with the B-word instead. And we, we all know that no one wants to work for that person. So what I have done is instead, I’m really careful about how I record all my processes using Google Docs. I have almost like a Wikipedia playbook of how to do everything. And then I make sure as I record my processes, I create videos, step by step, how-tos, nice. And then I also have other types who I know are a little bit better at, you know, thing, finding things I miss, for instance, are ESFJ. CFO, he will find everything I’ve missed. And it’s great, by the way, you got that a lot of people resent it, don’t lean into it, they’re making you better. And that’s one of the other pieces of advice is stop resisting the types that you know, sometimes that can aggravate us come to them as they are, realize that they have superpowers you don’t utilize them for where they’re good. And then when you know, they’re kind of getting out of their lane, you know, kind of manage that appropriately.
As an ENTP manager, I find that I have three roles. I’m a coach, I’m constantly watching people and making small adjustments. And you have to be thinking that way, you’re a leader, which means leading by example, and doing everything yourself before you pass on to people. So you’re not a hypocrite, right? Understand how and why. And then you’re also a manager. And that’s the hardest one is actually managing because that’s the type you need to be detail-oriented. And, you know, you need to be a little more stickler, and disciplined. And that’s where I don’t have that ability. So I’d say me as an ENTP manager, managing is my worst aspect.
Joe Arrigo
That’s perfect. No, that’s that is funny, though. I mean, like, everyone has the capacity to be a manager. And I just think like, the ENTP I do not think I know anything in my life that our manager so it’s, I really wanted to hear that from you. Now, let me something that you’ve mentioned the beginning. That it’s we’re you know, we’re kind of, in a tight community, we’re all kind of bored with like, yes, we’re bored with the idea of like, you can’t use it to hire which is totally fine. Do you ever think of, I have an idea of the type of person that would be good at this job. I’m gonna ask them type-related questions like that. We’ll get an answer. That would show this is probably the type like if I needed an Introverted Sensing type, I’m going to ask them a question that introverted sensor would be like, nail it. But someone that would be like having Introverted Sensing in their inferior like an Ne type like yourself. They would struggle… they would fumble. Can you use interviewing and type in combine those?
Bree Hanson
Yeah, and I would obviously suggest it. Your CFO is way more likely to be an N-type. And your bookkeepers are way more likely to be an SJ type. And I’m going to ask if they enjoy that type of work if they’re doing it every day. So I think it’s just naturally going to be a part of the process.
Joe Arrigo
Should we be trying to like type celebs, athletes, famous people?
Bree Hanson
I love this question. Because it’s, it’s kind of it is a difficult question. One, I’ll start with intention, like what is the intention of your typing the person, I think oftentimes, we type someone in order to understand ourselves better, or recognize a part of ourselves and another person, in which case, I think that that’s a good part of the process, you should be trying to understand who you are better through relating to people. So there’s nothing wrong with that. The problem is that oftentimes, you know, the way that people are coming up, you should be showing all cognitive functions. And oftentimes, they’ll be like, Oh, look, I just saw Fi. And you’re like, Well, that was Fi, actually, in their shadow, they were in a defensive position. But most people don’t have the sense of even knowing how it works well enough to be able to take a step back and be like, Oh, well, that is that it was just showing up in this part of themselves. So I think that we have to be careful about making assumptions when we type people, especially when you go on some of these websites, and you see celebrities being typed and then a celebrity themselves, post what they are on Twitter, and it’s completely different. And so now you have to ask yourself, and this, this comes up a lot, well, who’s right? The person themselves, or the person typing them? And now you’re asking yourself, Well, does this person know themselves? And oftentimes the person doing the typing becomes arrogant? Well, of course, I know the system better than they know themselves. And I think that’s pretty arrogant. How can you watch a couple interviews with someone and so you know, someone that person has been themselves their whole life, they have an inner monologue happening, especially if they’re an introvert. Yeah. introverts, in fact, Jung said are harder to type because they do have that inner monologue and you’re only seeing their second function, right? So I think it’s best to come to someone and ask them who they are. Just ask, Hey, what have you typed as? And then, I think as you said, In a recent interview, what becomes confusing is if someone types as two different types, and now they’re going back and forth. And oftentimes, those two types don’t even look alike. So why are they I’m an INFP, and an INFJ? So I think this is where hiring a coach like yourself can be helpful in that guiding process and figuring out because if you want to figure out your type, you really need an expert to sit there and ask you the right questions and observe you and together you come up to that conclusion.
Joe Arrigo
The most important part about working with a professional is the feedback session. And then get 360 feedback. talk to your mom, dad, sister, spouse. Confirm it. Did you have anything else to say on that?
Bree Hanson
Yeah, since you’re the Ghost of Jung, I’m going to bring up this point. So in Jung’s day, Freud and psychoanalysis, you only came to the patient as they were in your session. Well, Jung broke that rule. Big time. We know his relationship with Toni Wolff went beyond his sessions. And what he said is, you have to observe patients outside because who they’re coming to you his persona, they are showing you one side of themselves. And really, it does take a 360-degree view of the person from other people’s observations.
Joe Arrigo
Okay, so relationships. How does someone date ENTP? And what should they know going into that date or that relationship?
Very carefully. Okay, my observation, and I am an ENTP. And I’ve also dated male ENTPs. I think ENTPs have a kind of long gestation period. So that means women are going to mature faster, we’re still slow. And I’m like, Whoa, I was way behind on some of this emotional maturation. It’s okay. Um, that being said, we are curious. That is I say, the number one things is that we are constantly curious, my current partner is an INTJ. And I love the way his curiosity shows up, because it shows up way different than mine. This is a chance for me to kind of grow. But I like INTJs because they’re curious. There are some types who are less curious. And I don’t think I could have a long-term partnership with them, because it would I would get bored. And so for me, I like people who are naturally curious.
Joe Arrigo
Okay, so what would be an example of a good first date for an ENTP?
Bree Hanson
So even TPs are pretty perceptive. Socially, despite the fact that we take a long time to mature. When people think out of the box, for the first date, do something a little bit different, you know, taking me for drinks and trying to get me into bed…. cliche. You know, we’ve seen it a million times, taking me on a really cool hike to a place I’ve never been before. That’s going to get my attention and taking me to a small restaurant that’s, you know, Mom and Pop place that’s got, you know, really authentic food is more interesting to me than going to like Macaroni Grill.
Joe Arrigo
If you were going on a long road trip with three other people in your car, what would those Types be?
Bree Hanson
So in thinking about this one, I it’s like and thinking about this, I feel combining my thinking and my extroverted feeling, because my extroverted feeling does come out a lot on this one. My first instinct isn’t ESFJ. And that’s because I travel well with them. I always have, for some reason, my ability to brainstorm and their ability to kind of figure out what everybody likes. They put together a fabulous agenda and like, do most of the organization but they take all my suggestions. So I always feel like a good ESFJ, who’s organizing the trip can be really handy. I’m going to go with an INFP because I want someone to read poetry to me in the backseat of a car.
I love brainstorming and chatting with INFPs they’re dialoguists like an INFJ is a monologuist. So they’re going to just talk to me and tell me things for a long time. Whereas I’m going to banter with my INFP. So I want to, I want them on a road trip, I want all more banter, okay. And then I think for my final type, I’m going with the INTJ. Because that’s my partner. And I do think that they make for great drivers. Because they like to speed a lot there. Se comes out when they’re driving, and it can be really fun. And then I’m in this, I’m in this seat with the map. And I’m like, here’s where we go. And I like to figure out the routes and then he just zips to where I want to go. So I think that’s my crew.
Joe Arrigo
Do you have certain types that you find take more effort on your end to work with them?
Bree Hanson
Okay, I’ve worked for a lot of ESTJs and ISTJs naturally, because they fall into middle management positions. I like working for them because they give me the discipline that I need. But then I find myself very overworked. Like I become a workaholic when I’m working for them because the rigor and the discipline they require doesn’t, it’s too much time in the day, like there’s not enough time in the day.
I find that an INTJ or you know, more than other N types will recreate the efficiencies, and then they’re going to go ahead and completely implement them. So I find that those types need to learn how to work with upper management on getting process changes that help like they need to learn how to grease wheels really well.
I find that ESFJ’s can be draining from a… give an ESFJ a document, they will constantly comment and pick out it endlessly, forever. So you have to give them criteria in which it’s finished, right? Otherwise, it’s endless. And like I won’t hit my deadlines, and my boss is like, and I have an INTJ boss. And he’s like, why aren’t you hitting your deadlines on like the ESFJ won’t stop commenting. And he’s like, you haven’t learned to create criteria yet. So he’s actually taught me how to, he’s very good at keeping the ESF j, who’s brilliant, by the way, CFO, and he’s brilliant. And he manages a team of brilliant people. He does get in the weeds. Yeah, oftentimes, the INTJ is like, Get the hell out of the way. What are you doing in there? And I’m like, thank you. Thank you.
Joe Arrigo
Now, this is a question that I just thought of, because we’ve chatted before offline about this. So your industry is the venture capital world, right?
Bree Hanson
Yes, I work with I, I’m in business development, and the channel I work with is in VC.
Joe Arrigo
So a book that I recently finished was called billion-dollar loser its about WeWork and Adam Neumann. And I just, there’s always there seems to be a trend with, like ESTPs types tend to be entrepreneurs. And for better or worse. Adam Newman is definitely an ESTP.
Bree Hanson
That was my that was kind of my vibe. Yeah. And I’m just wondering, like to not type like we just talked. Yeah, but that’s the vibe. So let’s just say that that’s, you know, his persona.
Joe Arrigo
Yeah, I mean, so that’s, that’s a persona that he projects to the world. I always just like, what I don’t really have a question here. I’m just sort of saying, like, isn’t it interesting how they’re, they start to group themselves, like, Oh, this is like, probably SP types in this entrepreneur. Like, if you went to a, like, Y Combinator meeting, you’re gonna get a lot of SP types. I just, maybe some entities, but I feel like you overwhelmingly be like, charismatic sellers. And just people want to be on stage and talking. So is there anything wrong with that? I mean, just does that does that sound right?
Bree Hanson
So that would be one of the personas. So there’s several startup personas in terms of startup CEOs, one startup persona is the sales guy, that’s your ESTP. It’s, it’s like, you can almost there is you know, and that’s a large percentage of entrepreneurs. The second that you’re going to get is the product guy, okay, that’s going to be your is t, j is maybe ISTP, INTP, ENTP, INTJ, could be any of those types. It typically, I’d say you actually see a lot in the is TJ. For some reason, I see those a lot. In the third category, you have kind of more older management, maybe done it before worked for several companies, but never was a CEO, but they’re more of a serial entrepreneur type. With a business background. Those are your NT types. So you kind of those are the three groupings or product guys or business guys and your sales guys. And in venture your VCs aligned to those three personas.
Joe Arrigo
Bree, it was great to talk to you for glad we got to do this. I will post where people can find you on LinkedIn, so they can connect with you. But I appreciate you being here. And hopefully, we can do it again soon.
Bree Hanson
Awesome. Thank you.
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