Interview with AsuraPsych – Edited for time and flow
Joe Arrigo
In Western society, we seem to have, in my mind, a hierarchy of types. And basically what I’m saying is that those that succeed, make the most money, rise to the top of corporations, the government, really lean heavily into extroverted thinking or Te. But as a thought experiment, what do you think society would look like if we just inverted that pyramid? So we’d have our introverted feelers (Fi) at the top, and extroverted thinkers (Te) in a different spot. How would it look? I’d love to have another INTJ run wild with that.
AsuraPsych
I think you can almost see that when you look at certain countries like Sweden, for example, are very introverted by nature. I think a lot of those countries tend to focus more on things like culture, because they’re, their support systems support them enough so that they don’t have to be in competition with each other. And people who are in fields like art and music and production can succeed more easily, without being detrimental to them to not do so. Because I think like in Western societies, it’s detrimental to attempt to be some sort of artists because the society doesn’t provide ways for them to be living by doing so.
Joe Arrigo
I’ve never thought about extroverted thinking in the sense of like, the first thing that comes to mind is NOT competition. But I guess, thinking the way you said it, it sort of just naturally lends itself to competition.
AsuraPsych
I think the extroverted thinkers are the ones who are the most aware of general competence hierarchies, and they are the ones who want to climb them if possible, especially the Te doms. You look at Te dom’s, and they’re the ones racing to get promotions at work. And there is value there in like, you know, you get more money, and there’s stuff like that, but I think the rank and achievement of it, is what pushes them as well.
Joe Arrigo
Okay, then success in the Fi dominant is…? I mean, it would be hard to define success broadly across society with Fi would it not?
AsuraPsych
Right. And because I think the thing you notice with Fi alot is they tend to have this attitude of ‘I respect my way of doing things when it comes to like, right and wrong.’ They, for the most part, respect other people’s ways of doing things as long as it’s not interrupting their way of doing things.
Joe Arrigo
In my coaching I’ve not coached any ISFPs or INFPs. Closest is ENFP. They do tend to really gravitate towards personal development, things like that. So it’s I’ve not dealt with an Fi dom yet. Have you?
AsuraPsych
Yeah, I find that INFPs are one of my more frequent types I’ve worked with– maybe one or two ISFPs. But their problems are always very similar in my experience, and it’s that they have this kind of unconscious value for extroverted thinking, but they really struggle to do it. And an extremely common thing is they try to start their own businesses because they think they need to achieve success. And then they’re miserable. ‘I don’t want to be in this business, I’m not happy with what I’m doing.’ And it’s like, well, what would you be doing if you could do anything you want?
Joe Arrigo
As we know, there are tons of different models within the MBTI community. We have cognitive functions model, Beebe model, socionics, objective personality, Keirsey Temperaments. What is the model that you personally follow?
AsuraPsych
It is a little bit of a Frankenstein’s monster as much as I wish it wasn’t because on a personal level, I like the idea of Jung’s Eight Types the most, because I personally think of the second and third function as the two auxiliary functions instead of the auxiliary and the tertiary. But I think that the Briggs 16 types is the best way to classify the types. And it’s just the one that everyone knows at this point. In the terms of the theory, I like Jung’s original work, but in terms of the classification, I very much like the Briggs 16 types.
Joe Arrigo
How do you keep coming up with content that you find interesting, but also that your audience is also going to be interested in?
AsuraPsych
I do have video suggestions like from my Patreon, people can suggest videos. And then in my Discord server, I have a place where people can suggest videos. I’m very much a spark of madness type of person, when it comes to my ideas. Having the idea I need to do something with it before I run out of time or just sits there for too long. So if I have those ideas, I want to make the video as soon as possible, I want to do something with it.
Joe Arrigo
So you and I would be considered part of the New Guard. What are we supposed to do to make MBTI attractive? Because it’s kind of viewed as like, old? “Oh, I’ve done that test… I did it 20 times before…we’ve had so many people come into our company and do it…” So what are we supposed to do about that?
AsuraPsych
I’ve been pushing for this idea that I don’t think that MBTI needs to be seen as a science to be valid. I love to describe MBTI or just personality typology in general as a ‘philosophy of psychology’ instead of a science of psychology. And I think that’s how Jung viewed it as well. He was saying that this is the way in which humans most likely conceptualize the things that they interact with, how they process information, etc. And then we can better understand ourselves and others through these models of understanding.
Big Five is great, great that it’s scientific, it’s quantitative. What does it do for you? You know, that’s where it ends. What is Big Five doing for you as an individual? Have you changed your personality or behavior because of Big Five? 90% of people are going to say no, just because it doesn’t really do the same things that MBTI does.
I think it was harmful for psychology in the long run, because we’ve gotten to the point where we forgot that psychology is about humans. And if we look at psychiatry, compared to psychology, psychiatry, is more along the lines of, ‘well, this thing worked for 78% of people. So therefore, if you have this issue, we’re going to use x solution because it worked for 78% of people.’ The other 22% of people are out of luck.
Joe Arrigo
That is a tragedy! So Asura, I could ask you to describe yourself and you’d probably say: analytical, conceptual, more of a wallflower, stuff like that. And then I’d say, ‘Well, the way that I would classify that is INTJ. Then people go, “No, I’m not! I’m an ESFP, or I can be anything I want, I don’t like these labels!!” But like, if you describe your friend over there, you would assign labels.
AsuraPsych
We categorize everyone. That’s just how we work as humans.
Joe Arrigo
So then I try to go well, there is a 16 type model that also labels that as well… What’s wrong with that? And they go, “I don’t want to be labeled.” We have this illogical fear of being in a certain category.
AsuraPsych
Right? And it’s so weird, especially because in the past two or three years, things like race and identity have become so huge because now we’re labeling everything! And people still talk about MBTI like they’re afraid of having a label. There’s a middle ground somewhere where you don’t have to BE the label. But it’s there to help you in some aspect.
Joe Arrigo
I’m actually just gonna lean into the box and say, “Yes it’s a box, but it’s a 5000 square mile box and it will take you your entire life to navigate – as Jung said – you’ll never integrate all the parts of your personality so don’t worry about being in this ‘box.'”
AsuraPsych
I think you could go through life without Type just fine, but I think it is such a useful tool for people who do use it and find out the right ways to use it.
Joe Arrigo
Interestingly I don’t think I know more than one ESFP. I think they’re rare. But apparently, INTJ is more rare, but I don’t come across ESFPs ever.
AsuraPsych
Yeah, I actually have an opinion on this. I think that when they were norming the MBTI studies, it was done before the internet was in place. And therefore, there were less intuitives involved in the kind of process of when they were going out interacting with individuals. Now intuitives are a dime a dozen, you can’t walk five feet without running into them. And they think that they’re only 30% of the population, I think they probably are closer to 40-45%. And that the difference nearly as big as people think.
Joe Arrigo
That’s a hot take! When I present type at a very high level, I always use what David Keirsey observed which was around 75/25 Intuitive vs Sensing, as it was though we mostly have a Sensor society.. So you’re saying it’s more like 60/40, or even higher?
AsuraPsych
Yeah, I just think that the intuitives, back then, they were more reclusive in their interests, essentially. But now the internet exists. And it’s no longer weird to be weird. So they come out of their cages, and they’re happy to show themselves and do things and interact with others, and they have a safe place to do so. And it’s one of those things where like, I do believe that the intuitives are a little bit more rare.
From like an evolutionary standpoint, that makes sense. Because you know, the intuitives are the ones who are going to be more risky are going to leave camp to go looking for new things to do and they’re more likely to get eaten by bear. But now that we have things like the internet, it’s no longer dangerous to be intuitive.
Joe Arrigo
Asura, take it easy, and I appreciate you coming on the show.
AsuraPsych
Sure! See you.
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