Dual Wielding INTJs Combined IQ of 400 – AsuraPsych interview

Interview with AsuraPsychEdited for time and flow

Joe Arrigo  

In Western society, we seem to have, in my mind, a hierarchy of types. And basically what I’m saying is that those that succeed, make the most money, rise to the top of corporations, the government, really lean heavily into extroverted thinking or Te. But as a thought experiment, what do you think society would look like if we just inverted that pyramid? So we’d have our introverted feelers (Fi) at the top, and extroverted thinkers (Te) in a different spot. How would it look? I’d love to have another INTJ run wild with that.

grayscale photo of people during marathon

AsuraPsych  

I think you can almost see that when you look at certain countries like Sweden, for example, are very introverted by nature.  I think a lot of those countries tend to focus more on things like culture, because they’re, their support systems support them enough so that they don’t have to be in competition with each other.  And people who are in fields like art and music and production can succeed more easily, without being detrimental to them to not do so. Because I think like in Western societies, it’s detrimental to attempt to be some sort of artists because the society doesn’t provide ways for them to be living by doing so.

landscape photograph of body of water near forest

Joe Arrigo  

I’ve never thought about extroverted thinking in the sense of like, the first thing that comes to mind is NOT competition. But I guess, thinking the way you said it, it sort of just naturally lends itself to competition.

AsuraPsych  

I think the extroverted thinkers are the ones who are the most aware of general competence hierarchies, and they are the ones who want to climb them if possible, especially the Te doms. You look at Te dom’s, and they’re the ones racing to get promotions at work. And there is value there in like, you know, you get more money, and there’s stuff like that, but I think the rank and achievement of it, is what pushes them as well.

white stage

Joe Arrigo  

Okay, then success in the Fi dominant is…? I mean, it would be hard to define success broadly across society with Fi would it not?

AsuraPsych  

Right. And because I think the thing you notice with Fi alot is they tend to have this attitude of ‘I respect my way of doing things when it comes to like, right and wrong.’ They, for the most part, respect other people’s ways of doing things as long as it’s not interrupting their way of doing things.

human hand neon signage

Joe Arrigo  

In my coaching I’ve not coached any ISFPs or INFPs. Closest is ENFP. They do tend to really gravitate towards personal development, things like that. So it’s I’ve not dealt with an Fi dom yet. Have you?

AsuraPsych

Yeah, I find that INFPs are one of my more frequent types I’ve worked with– maybe one or two ISFPs. But their problems are always very similar in my experience, and it’s that they have this kind of unconscious value for extroverted thinking, but they really struggle to do it. And an extremely common thing is they try to start their own businesses because they think they need to achieve success. And then they’re miserable. ‘I don’t want to be in this business, I’m not happy with what I’m doing.’ And it’s like, well, what would you be doing if you could do anything you want?

selective focus photo of black pug

Joe Arrigo  

As we know, there are tons of different models within the MBTI community. We have cognitive functions model, Beebe model, socionics, objective personality, Keirsey Temperaments. What is the model that you personally follow?

Introduction to Socionics | Mbti, Intp, Mbti personality

AsuraPsych  

It is a little bit of a Frankenstein’s monster as much as I wish it wasn’t because on a personal level, I like the idea of Jung’s Eight Types the most, because I personally think of the second and third function as the two auxiliary functions instead of the auxiliary and the tertiary.  But I think that the Briggs 16 types is the best way to classify the types. And it’s just the one that everyone knows at this point. In the terms of the theory, I like Jung’s original work, but in terms of the classification, I very much like the Briggs 16 types.

Joe Arrigo  

How do you keep coming up with content that you find interesting, but also that your audience is also going to be interested in?

AsuraPsych  

I do have video suggestions like from my Patreon, people can suggest videos. And then in my Discord server, I have a place where people can suggest videos. I’m very much a spark of madness type of person, when it comes to my ideas. Having the idea I need to do something with it before I run out of time or just sits there for too long. So if I have those ideas, I want to make the video as soon as possible, I want to do something with it.

silhouette photography of person

Joe Arrigo  

So you and I would be considered part of the New Guard. What are we supposed to do to make MBTI attractive? Because it’s kind of viewed as like, old? “Oh, I’ve done that test… I did it 20 times before…we’ve had so many people come into our company and do it…” So what are we supposed to do about that?

AsuraPsych  

I’ve been pushing for this idea that I don’t think that MBTI needs to be seen as a science to be valid. I love to describe MBTI or just personality typology in general as a ‘philosophy of psychology’ instead of a science of psychology. And I think that’s how Jung viewed it as well. He was saying that this is the way in which humans most likely conceptualize the things that they interact with, how they process information, etc. And then we can better understand ourselves and others through these models of understanding.

book lot on black wooden shelf

Big Five is great, great that it’s scientific, it’s quantitative. What does it do for you? You know, that’s where it ends. What is Big Five doing for you as an individual? Have you changed your personality or behavior because of Big Five? 90% of people are going to say no, just because it doesn’t really do the same things that MBTI does.

I think it was harmful for psychology in the long run, because we’ve gotten to the point where we forgot that psychology is about humans. And if we look at psychiatry, compared to psychology, psychiatry, is more along the lines of, ‘well, this thing worked for 78% of people. So therefore, if you have this issue, we’re going to use x solution because it worked for 78% of people.’ The other 22% of people are out of luck.

Joe Arrigo  

That is a tragedy! So Asura, I could ask you to describe yourself and you’d probably say: analytical, conceptual, more of a wallflower, stuff like that. And then I’d say, ‘Well, the way that I would classify that is INTJ. Then people go, “No, I’m not!  I’m an ESFP, or I can be anything I want, I don’t like these labels!!” But like, if you describe your friend over there, you would assign labels.

AsuraPsych  

We categorize everyone. That’s just how we work as humans.

gray steel locker room inside the room

Joe Arrigo  

So then I try to go well, there is a 16 type model that also labels that as well… What’s wrong with that? And they go, “I don’t want to be labeled.” We have this illogical fear of being in a certain category.

AsuraPsych  

Right? And it’s so weird, especially because in the past two or three years, things like race and identity have become so huge because now we’re labeling everything! And people still talk about MBTI like they’re afraid of having a label. There’s a middle ground somewhere where you don’t have to BE the label. But it’s there to help you in some aspect.

Joe Arrigo  

I’m actually just gonna lean into the box and say, “Yes it’s a box, but it’s a 5000 square mile box and it will take you your entire life to navigate – as Jung said – you’ll never integrate all the parts of your personality so don’t worry about being in this ‘box.'”

person facing forest reading map during daytime

AsuraPsych  

I think you could go through life without Type just fine, but I think it is such a useful tool for people who do use it and find out the right ways to use it.

Joe Arrigo  

Interestingly I don’t think I know more than one ESFP. I think they’re rare. But apparently, INTJ is more rare, but I don’t come across ESFPs ever.

AsuraPsych 

Yeah, I actually have an opinion on this. I think that when they were norming the MBTI studies, it was done before the internet was in place. And therefore, there were less intuitives involved in the kind of process of when they were going out interacting with individuals. Now intuitives are a dime a dozen, you can’t walk five feet without running into them. And they think that they’re only 30% of the population, I think they probably are closer to 40-45%. And that the difference nearly as big as people think.

Joe Arrigo  

That’s a hot take! When I present type at a very high level, I always use what David Keirsey observed which was around 75/25 Intuitive vs Sensing,  as it was though we mostly have a Sensor society.. So you’re saying it’s more like 60/40, or even higher?

AsuraPsych  

Yeah, I just think that the intuitives, back then, they were more reclusive in their interests, essentially. But now the internet exists. And it’s no longer weird to be weird. So they come out of their cages, and they’re happy to show themselves and do things and interact with others, and they have a safe place to do so. And it’s one of those things where like, I do believe that the intuitives are a little bit more rare.

brown bear on green grass during daytime

From like an evolutionary standpoint, that makes sense. Because you know, the intuitives are the ones who are going to be more risky are going to leave camp to go looking for new things to do and they’re more likely to get eaten by bear. But now that we have things like the internet, it’s no longer dangerous to be intuitive.

Joe Arrigo  

Asura, take it easy, and I appreciate you coming on the show.

AsuraPsych  

Sure! See you.

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Why are ESFPs so immature and annoying?

Joe Arrigo interviews the incredibly talented ESFP YouTube sensation Dear Kristin

Transcript edited for length and content

Extraverted Sensing for the ESFP

Joe Arrigo  

Kristin, as we know, ESFPs are objectively the worst type. Can you dispel some of the rumors and tell us why ESFPs are the best?

Dear Kristin  

Generally speaking, people tend to think that were very ditzy, attention-seeking, or self-centered and you understand where that’s coming from because we run with our Se function which means that generally, we don’t have that inner monologue going on in our head. It’s not that we’re particularly selfish– all the types can be selfish– it’s just that it’s more obvious when we’re having self-centered or attention-seeking behavior.

Introduction | Entertainer (ESFP) Personality | 16Personalities
ESFP from 16personalities.com

Joe Arrigo  

That’s what drew me to you’re amazingly fast-growing Youtube channel that’s basically how the 16 types do [fill in the blank] and it’s exactly what I think the community needs at this point….something that we discussed in like the pre-show was people may not be aware that the INTJ myself and the ESFP have the exact same top four cognitive functions but they’re just in a slightly different order. But if you were to see us in the wild you would not necessarily put any of that together. We couldn’t be more different!

Every video is a must watch!

Dear Kristin  

It’s so uncanny how true I find the cognitive functions to be in daily life.

ESFPs and Relationships

Joe Arrigo  

What does an ESFP need in a relationship? And I’m talking about in a partner, not necessarily like a friend or colleague, but in a partner?

Here Is The Top 'Love Language' For Each Myers-Briggs Personality Type |  Thought Catalog

Dear Kristin  

In a partner, the number one thing that an ESFP needs is to be given the freedom to experience things, because that is a function that I can’t stress enough. It’s literally just like, in the same way that the Ne is all about, like, let’s just explore ideas for the sake of exploring ideas. Like it’s not going anywhere, we just want to explore it, right? It’s the same with us. We want to experience and gather literally, for the sake of experiencing like, I’m the kind of person who I’ll be driving down the highway, and I’ll have my music blaring, and I’ll see a truck coming. And I’ll roll down my window just so I can feel the wind of the truck going faster on the highway, like that. Sounds like thrill-seeking, but that’s kind of like what it’s like, you know if I’m doing that I’ll arrive at my destination, and I’ll feel happy. And I’ll feel full of life because I’ve had it like I’ve fed my Se for the day.

women's black tank top
Se expression

So in relationships, we really need to feel like that’s understood and that we can go and have the freedom to go and experience things… but not like toxic things or unhelpful things. And that’s just what it is like, we just get joy from being at an experiencing, and enjoy. And the upside of that is like, well, first of all, you’re gonna have a lot of fun. But second of all, when we’re with you, like, you have our full attention, because we’re so about what’s immediately in front of us.  100% if we feel trapped in any way, like, if there are those expectations of how often you need, like how often we need to text you or how often we need to call you or how often, you know, we need to see you. And those expectations are being forced on us, we’re not going to want to stay in that relationship. 

What does an ESFP wear?

Joe Arrigo

For someone that does skits like yourself, you have a crap ton of wardrobe changes. One, do you spend an inordinate amount of time trying to figure out what am I going to wear? And do you have to, like buy new clothes?

clothes hanged on brown wooden cabinet

Dear Kristin  

I set up my camera and then I go to my wardrobe and I get out 16 outfits. So it’s kind of on a whim, but they all laid out on my bed just to make it easier or like wherever is nearby.  I have thought about just implementing just one outfit for the ESFP for every video, but then that’s assuming that I would have the diligence to like, remember and keep track of all those outfits.  This is why I love talking about type because like, everyone has their own spectrum of type experience with certain…I have INTJ is in my life that I cannot be more different than, but there are like certain things that are pillars of being an INTJ that I feel are a defining factor. And some of the other things might be a little bit nuanced. One of my biggest crusades is that… all the types can be terrible and be really good. It’s like, ‘oh, the INFJ have a heart of gold. It’s like, Well, there are a lot of bad INFJs in life. So it’s like, you shouldn’t think that there are better types, even though personally, I have had some bad experiences with certain types that might jade my view.


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You are just plain wrong

Joe Arrigo interviews ENTP Marina Krivonossova about being controversial, LinkedIn, and human trafficking

ENTP Personality Type Online

Joe Arrigo  

Marina, you know what is hilarious? When I was describing what personality type I thought you were… I said I thought ENTP. Because I mean, you are a controversial kind of… I wouldn’t say argumentative, but your persona online screams ENTP. And then immediately you were like, “Nope, that’s not me. I don’t argue with people at all.” HA! and I was like, “uhhh that’s exactly what they do! They argue; they’re debaters. So I know that you and I have kind of gone back and forth with whether personality type is real or not. But in terms of you liking to challenge the status quo or whatever the norm is online or on LinkedIn, does that do you feel that matches you?

I drew the ENTP female character! : entp

Marina K 

I think the most important thing for me is being true to myself. And I kind of I kind of always want other people to be true to themselves. And a lot of time online and on LinkedIn, people are very clearly trying to preach to the choir, they’re trying to, you know, virtue signal all of that. And when I see that I get a specific result, you know, randomly and you’re like, “Well, no, no, you’re definitely THAT I’m like, but how well do you know me? How many times have we talked on the phone? How many times have I shared my life story?” So it’s those assumptions. So as much as I’m authentic, I’m not posting my life 24/7, and you can draw conclusions based off the posts, you see, I mean, some of it will be true. But a lot of it will be tied in with the assumptions you make.

Writing Content, Copywriting, and Creativity

Joe Arrigo  

Yes, yes, absolutely. I have a great working relationship with many ENTPs and it’s funny because there is another interview I did with Camille Trent, she’s a copywriter, she’s an ENTP. And she has… there seems to be a controversial way that they’re always challenging something. What’s the deal there? There has to be a trend with that personality that gets into marketing/copywriting because part of marketing has to somehow be provocative, don’t you think?

Marina K  

No, absolutely. Writing, you know, it’s fueled passion, whether it be negative or positive, there’s always something behind it. So I can definitely imagine that more argumentative people are more prone to writing because, I don’t know, I feel like expressing your thoughts and emotions goes hand in hand with creativity.

Ernest Hemingway - There is nothing to writing. All you do...

What is a good LinkedIn Strategy?

Joe Arrigo  

What is your LinkedIn strategy?

Marina K  

It started with me literally planning everything I would over the course of a week, I would write things in my email draft, because it felt easier to keep things there. And I would be like, Okay, at this time, I’m going to post every day, every other day, whatever. But I realized that my posts still weren’t performing consistently. Sometimes they’d really take off, other times, you know, five likes, and they pop. So I just kind of realized that I shouldn’t treat it so much like a job. I just started posting what’s on my mind what I’m thinking. And because I like to believe that all my writing is creative, my marketing is creative, that all ties back into what I do. So I think at this point, I just kind of write about what feels right in the moment and people seem to like it. so far. So good,

Joe Arrigo  

As a provocateur, do you ever delete a post that gets too much hate?

Delet This | Know Your Meme

Marina K  

I have not. I’ve honestly deleted posts. If they didn’t perform as well as I thought, I know that’s, that’s ridiculous. You can judge me for that. But I posted things. And an hour later, I have like 100 views and two likes, and I’m like, wow, I really messed up today. And I could just delete it and pretend it never happened. But in terms of reactions, no, I don’t delete it. I never post things that I find to be bad. But if something’s controversial, and people feel a certain way, they can discuss, I might stop responding. If I feel like it’s getting very accusatory, or if they’re just, you know, going through the ad hominem attacks, but I won’t delete a post, you know, if you have something to say, go ahead and say it, your boss is gonna see it, your mom’s gonna see it, your kids are gonna see it. That’s not for me to deal with.

Fighting Human Trafficking

Joe Arrigo  

We had kind of discovered that we align on the philanthropic side of our lives. We both support anti-human trafficking initiatives. And recently, one of the campaigns I implemented was a 5% donation of every poster sold to anti-human trafficking organizations and fighting Big Porn and all that. So how did you get involved without as well?

Marina K  

So when I got into my undergraduate studies, I initially wanted to study economics. That’s what interested me most. But to diversify, I kind of decided, you know, I’ll try an international relations class, you know, nothing to lose. I’m like, 19, you know, all my years of school ahead of me. And we had a lecture, we talked about human trafficking. And I went to school in Southern California, you know, you very much see yourself as living in this developed advanced place where this shouldn’t be an issue. But she really revealed to, you know, me and everyone else, that human trafficking is a huge thing in the developed world. It’s not just something like in the distant lands that you never hear of, it’s very much real, and around us in the US, in California, and all those big cities. And I was like, oh, wow, that’s a serious problem.  So that’s how I ended up doing that. And I went to do my masters in the Netherlands, and writing, I was writing my thesis on anti human trafficking policy in the Netherlands, and the failures and successes thereof. So, that’s kind of where I’m at now. And I’d like to pursue work in that field later on as well.

Joe Arrigo  

God, there’s so many NGOs out there. There’s so many causes, and I’m always skeptical of causes, but this this is probably one that I’m really on board with especially because there’s two things that are tied together: human trafficking and porn. And they’re the same thing, basically. So like, it is definitely going to affect our, my generation, your generation, and then even younger, so we have to do something about it. It’s just doesn’t get as much attention as the environment, even though it’s directly affecting people way more right now.

Marina K  

Yeah, no, that’s, that’s another thing that always bothered me, because, you know, taking this class in college, I was so shocked that like, you know, this is so prevalent in strip clubs in the US, and I started Googling it. And there are articles about trafficking was happening in Los Angeles, in San Francisco, just everywhere in the big cities. And I was like, why do I never see this? Why don’t ever hear about this? This is such a big deal affecting people, you know, of all ages, a lot of minors as well.

Joe Arrigo  

Yep. So yeah, I don’t know what the exact plan is, but there’s a lot to go on that. I like how this conversation has just gone like ENTP, marketing, TRAFFICKING!??

Marina K  

You know, it be like that sometimes you know?

They Don't Think It Be Like It Is But It Do | Know Your Meme

Joe Arrigo  

It really does. it really does. I think our relationship has just been really funny. I just, I was like, I kept seeing your stuff. And I was like, this person, like, really kind of poking the bear, I kind of ruffling feathers. And I’m like, this is awesome.

Marina K  

Everyone’s writing about the exact same thing. And you know, something happens in the news, there’s an election and people just write these vague, emotionless, non-partisan posts. And you’re the 14th person I’ve seen do this today. What’s the point? I don’t know, I find that boring. I like people who want to stand out. But if you’re really sharing your opinion, you’re sharing your stance. And if you back it up with facts, and you know, you’re being civil and polite, why not? I mean, that’s how we learn if we just all have the same opinion and never want to disagree. What’s the point? We’ll never get anywhere.


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Being a female ENTP manager

Interview with Bree Hanson – ENTP

Transcript minimally edited

Joe Arrigo  

What are some ways you have learned to be a good manager as an ENTP. And I might add ENTP female, because that’s different than an ENTP male. Just want to point that out.

Bree Hanson  

I would say the first bit of wisdom from an ENTP manager is our ability to recruit and thinking about recruiting all the time. You know, a lot of people like to think they can do everything on their own, the thing that I’ve learned is, I can’t, in fact, I can do very little on my own, I like to think of myself as more of a conductor or a fairy godmother. So something with I have a stick in my hand, but I don’t want to beat you with it, I want to create magic with it, okay, I want there to be an orchestra, I want to find the best tuba player, the best violinist, and I want them to create beautiful music together. So as a manager, I’m constantly looking for the best people, I’m not typing them right away, I’m looking for the best person for the job. And then I use type to then help manage them. So once they become you know, I’m hiring them. And usually, in the hiring process, I will ask their type to set of curiosity if they know it. Usually, in the first interview, if they don’t know it, no big deal, I’m not gonna push them into taking a test before I hire them, I literally look for the best people. So my first word of wisdom is to hire the best people, type them and then come to them as who they are, and not try to pick people based on type. Now, I only want this type of manager, whatever you will find there are people who tend to be better at certain jobs. And that will just naturally happen. If you’re picking the best people, you’re going to find that the type cluster.

Billy Porter will play 'genderless' Fairy Godmother in 'Cinderella'

Yeah, the second word of wisdom, as an ENTP manager is like organization and delegation, it can be a huge challenge for ENTPs. Oftentimes, you want to just do it ourselves, our T, extroverted thinking, as many of you know, is in the slot, which is the Witch/Senex slot, as they would say, and how I find that coming out is like, sometimes I’ll be like, hey, you’re an idiot, because you don’t know how to do this, you know, and so you become condescending, or a witch. And as a female manager, the worst thing you can do is come off as a witch because you get that label with the B-word instead. And we, we all know that no one wants to work for that person. So what I have done is instead, I’m really careful about how I record all my processes using Google Docs. I have almost like a Wikipedia playbook of how to do everything. And then I make sure as I record my processes, I create videos, step by step, how-tos, nice. And then I also have other types who I know are a little bit better at, you know, thing, finding things I miss, for instance, are ESFJ. CFO, he will find everything I’ve missed. And it’s great, by the way, you got that a lot of people resent it, don’t lean into it, they’re making you better. And that’s one of the other pieces of advice is stop resisting the types that you know, sometimes that can aggravate us come to them as they are, realize that they have superpowers you don’t utilize them for where they’re good. And then when you know, they’re kind of getting out of their lane, you know, kind of manage that appropriately.

ENTP Personality Type Explained | "The Debater" - YouTube

As an ENTP manager, I find that I have three roles. I’m a coach, I’m constantly watching people and making small adjustments. And you have to be thinking that way, you’re a leader, which means leading by example, and doing everything yourself before you pass on to people. So you’re not a hypocrite, right? Understand how and why. And then you’re also a manager. And that’s the hardest one is actually managing because that’s the type you need to be detail-oriented. And, you know, you need to be a little more stickler, and disciplined. And that’s where I don’t have that ability. So I’d say me as an ENTP manager, managing is my worst aspect. 

Joe Arrigo  

That’s perfect. No, that’s that is funny, though. I mean, like, everyone has the capacity to be a manager. And I just think like, the ENTP I do not think I know anything in my life that our manager so it’s, I really wanted to hear that from you. Now, let me something that you’ve mentioned the beginning. That it’s we’re you know, we’re kind of, in a tight community, we’re all kind of bored with like, yes, we’re bored with the idea of like, you can’t use it to hire which is totally fine. Do you ever think of, I have an idea of the type of person that would be good at this job. I’m gonna ask them type-related questions like that. We’ll get an answer. That would show this is probably the type like if I needed an Introverted Sensing type, I’m going to ask them a question that introverted sensor would be like, nail it. But someone that would be like having Introverted Sensing in their inferior like an Ne type like yourself. They would struggle… they would fumble. Can you use interviewing and type in combine those?

Bree Hanson  

Yeah, and I would obviously suggest it. Your CFO is way more likely to be an N-type. And your bookkeepers are way more likely to be an SJ type. And I’m going to ask if they enjoy that type of work if they’re doing it every day. So I think it’s just naturally going to be a part of the process. 

Joe Arrigo  

Should we be trying to like type celebs, athletes, famous people?

Bree Hanson  

I love this question. Because it’s, it’s kind of it is a difficult question. One, I’ll start with intention, like what is the intention of your typing the person, I think oftentimes, we type someone in order to understand ourselves better, or recognize a part of ourselves and another person, in which case, I think that that’s a good part of the process, you should be trying to understand who you are better through relating to people. So there’s nothing wrong with that. The problem is that oftentimes, you know, the way that people are coming up, you should be showing all cognitive functions. And oftentimes, they’ll be like, Oh, look, I just saw Fi. And you’re like, Well, that was Fi, actually, in their shadow, they were in a defensive position. But most people don’t have the sense of even knowing how it works well enough to be able to take a step back and be like, Oh, well, that is that it was just showing up in this part of themselves. So I think that we have to be careful about making assumptions when we type people, especially when you go on some of these websites, and you see celebrities being typed and then a celebrity themselves, post what they are on Twitter, and it’s completely different. And so now you have to ask yourself, and this, this comes up a lot, well, who’s right? The person themselves, or the person typing them? And now you’re asking yourself, Well, does this person know themselves? And oftentimes the person doing the typing becomes arrogant? Well, of course, I know the system better than they know themselves. And I think that’s pretty arrogant. How can you watch a couple interviews with someone and so you know, someone that person has been themselves their whole life, they have an inner monologue happening, especially if they’re an introvert. Yeah. introverts, in fact, Jung said are harder to type because they do have that inner monologue and you’re only seeing their second function, right? So I think it’s best to come to someone and ask them who they are. Just ask, Hey, what have you typed as? And then, I think as you said, In a recent interview, what becomes confusing is if someone types as two different types, and now they’re going back and forth. And oftentimes, those two types don’t even look alike. So why are they I’m an INFP, and an INFJ? So I think this is where hiring a coach like yourself can be helpful in that guiding process and figuring out because if you want to figure out your type, you really need an expert to sit there and ask you the right questions and observe you and together you come up to that conclusion.

Joe Arrigo  


The most important part about working with a professional is the feedback session. And then get 360 feedback. talk to your mom, dad, sister, spouse. Confirm it. Did you have anything else to say on that?

What-is-360-feedback?

Bree Hanson  

Yeah, since you’re the Ghost of Jung, I’m going to bring up this point. So in Jung’s day, Freud and psychoanalysis, you only came to the patient as they were in your session. Well, Jung broke that rule. Big time. We know his relationship with Toni Wolff went beyond his sessions. And what he said is, you have to observe patients outside because who they’re coming to you his persona, they are showing you one side of themselves. And really, it does take a 360-degree view of the person from other people’s observations.

Joe Arrigo  

Okay, so relationships. How does someone date ENTP? And what should they know going into that date or that relationship? 

Bree Hanson  

Very carefully. Okay, my observation, and I am an ENTP. And I’ve also dated male ENTPs. I think ENTPs have a kind of long gestation period. So that means women are going to mature faster, we’re still slow. And I’m like, Whoa, I was way behind on some of this emotional maturation. It’s okay. Um, that being said, we are curious. That is I say, the number one things is that we are constantly curious, my current partner is an INTJ. And I love the way his curiosity shows up, because it shows up way different than mine. This is a chance for me to kind of grow. But I like INTJs because they’re curious. There are some types who are less curious. And I don’t think I could have a long-term partnership with them, because it would I would get bored. And so for me, I like people who are naturally curious.

Joe Arrigo  

Okay, so what would be an example of a good first date for an ENTP?

Bree Hanson  

So even TPs are pretty perceptive. Socially, despite the fact that we take a long time to mature. When people think out of the box, for the first date, do something a little bit different, you know, taking me for drinks and trying to get me into bed…. cliche. You know, we’ve seen it a million times, taking me on a really cool hike to a place I’ve never been before. That’s going to get my attention and taking me to a small restaurant that’s, you know, Mom and Pop place that’s got, you know, really authentic food is more interesting to me than going to like Macaroni Grill.

Joe Arrigo  

If you were going on a long road trip with three other people in your car, what would those Types be?

Bree Hanson  

So in thinking about this one, I it’s like and thinking about this, I feel combining my thinking and my extroverted feeling, because my extroverted feeling does come out a lot on this one. My first instinct isn’t ESFJ. And that’s because I travel well with them. I always have, for some reason, my ability to brainstorm and their ability to kind of figure out what everybody likes. They put together a fabulous agenda and like, do most of the organization but they take all my suggestions. So I always feel like a good ESFJ, who’s organizing the trip can be really handy. I’m going to go with an INFP because I want someone to read poetry to me in the backseat of a car.

I love brainstorming and chatting with INFPs they’re dialoguists like an INFJ is a monologuist. So they’re going to just talk to me and tell me things for a long time. Whereas I’m going to banter with my INFP. So I want to, I want them on a road trip, I want all more banter, okay. And then I think for my final type, I’m going with the INTJ. Because that’s my partner. And I do think that they make for great drivers. Because they like to speed a lot there. Se comes out when they’re driving, and it can be really fun. And then I’m in this, I’m in this seat with the map. And I’m like, here’s where we go. And I like to figure out the routes and then he just zips to where I want to go. So I think that’s my crew.

Joe Arrigo  

Do you have certain types that you find take more effort on your end to work with them?

Bree Hanson  

Okay, I’ve worked for a lot of ESTJs and ISTJs naturally, because they fall into middle management positions. I like working for them because they give me the discipline that I need. But then I find myself very overworked. Like I become a workaholic when I’m working for them because the rigor and the discipline they require doesn’t, it’s too much time in the day, like there’s not enough time in the day.

5 things workaholics need to know about life and retirement - Retire Notes

I find that an INTJ or you know, more than other N types will recreate the efficiencies, and then they’re going to go ahead and completely implement them. So I find that those types need to learn how to work with upper management on getting process changes that help like they need to learn how to grease wheels really well.

I find that ESFJ’s can be draining from a… give an ESFJ a document, they will constantly comment and pick out it endlessly, forever. So you have to give them criteria in which it’s finished, right? Otherwise, it’s endless. And like I won’t hit my deadlines, and my boss is like, and I have an INTJ boss. And he’s like, why aren’t you hitting your deadlines on like the ESFJ won’t stop commenting. And he’s like, you haven’t learned to create criteria yet. So he’s actually taught me how to, he’s very good at keeping the ESF j, who’s brilliant, by the way, CFO, and he’s brilliant. And he manages a team of brilliant people. He does get in the weeds. Yeah, oftentimes, the INTJ is like, Get the hell out of the way. What are you doing in there? And I’m like, thank you. Thank you.

Joe Arrigo  

Now, this is a question that I just thought of, because we’ve chatted before offline about this. So your industry is the venture capital world, right?

Bree Hanson  

Yes, I work with I, I’m in business development, and the channel I work with is in VC.

Joe Arrigo  

So a book that I recently finished was called billion-dollar loser its about WeWork and Adam Neumann. And I just, there’s always there seems to be a trend with, like ESTPs types tend to be entrepreneurs. And for better or worse. Adam Newman is definitely an ESTP.

Adam Neumann will reportedly leave WeWork's board for a year as part of his  SoftBank settlement - and take home an extra $50 million payout

Bree Hanson  

That was my that was kind of my vibe. Yeah. And I’m just wondering, like to not type like we just talked. Yeah, but that’s the vibe. So let’s just say that that’s, you know, his persona.

Joe Arrigo  

Yeah, I mean, so that’s, that’s a persona that he projects to the world. I always just like, what I don’t really have a question here. I’m just sort of saying, like, isn’t it interesting how they’re, they start to group themselves, like, Oh, this is like, probably SP types in this entrepreneur. Like, if you went to a, like, Y Combinator meeting, you’re gonna get a lot of SP types. I just, maybe some entities, but I feel like you overwhelmingly be like, charismatic sellers. And just people want to be on stage and talking. So is there anything wrong with that? I mean, just does that does that sound right?

Bree Hanson  

So that would be one of the personas. So there’s several startup personas in terms of startup CEOs, one startup persona is the sales guy, that’s your ESTP. It’s, it’s like, you can almost there is you know, and that’s a large percentage of entrepreneurs. The second that you’re going to get is the product guy, okay, that’s going to be your is t, j is maybe ISTP, INTP, ENTP, INTJ, could be any of those types. It typically, I’d say you actually see a lot in the is TJ. For some reason, I see those a lot. In the third category, you have kind of more older management, maybe done it before worked for several companies, but never was a CEO, but they’re more of a serial entrepreneur type. With a business background. Those are your NT types. So you kind of those are the three groupings or product guys or business guys and your sales guys. And in venture your VCs aligned to those three personas. 

Joe Arrigo  

Bree, it was great to talk to you for glad we got to do this. I will post where people can find you on LinkedIn, so they can connect with you. But I appreciate you being here. And hopefully, we can do it again soon.

Bree Hanson  

Awesome. Thank you.


To book me for MBTI consultations–find my Calendly on the sidebar or here!

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HBO Max Persona Documentary Discussion

[WATCH] 'Persona' Trailer: HBO Max Doc Follows Influence Of Personality  Tests – Deadline

Keith McCormick and Joe Arrigo discuss the latest HBO Max Documentary ‘Persona’

The following is a minimally edited transcript. Apologies for the mistakes. Authenticity in dialogue is vitally important.


Joe Arrigo – INTJ
Yes, we are live. Super excited for this. I’m Joe Arrigo. I’m an INTJ. I am joined by Keith McCormick he’s an INTP. And I need him here for this because for the people that saw our last interview, I’m not a man of science. But Keith is a data scientist, and he’s gonna help kind of talk about some of the aspects of this persona, HBO max documentary. The way that we got here was kind of serendipitous. We had an interview, just scheduled to talk about some of the critics critiques the memes that are pervasive in The MBTI community. And this kind of these stats that keep coming up, you know, for example, the 50%, test, retest the attraction that’s like, well, it’s not reliable, it’s not valid. And just so happened. Like, as we were setting that discussion up, we learned that this persona HBO, Max documentary was coming out. So we’re like, well, we got to talk again. And we both watched it. It came out on March 4. And the response from The MBTI community has been overwhelming. I didn’t realize I was gonna see so much on Twitter and so much on LinkedIn, what is the response? Man? What have you seen Keith? And also thanks for being here?

Keith McCormick -INTP

Oh, you’re well, I’ve been looking forward to this. You know, I saw I saw some of the activity on Twitter, but mostly I’ve been chatting with, you know, my friends in the Association of psychological type. That, you know, I’m sure you’re familiar with most people are was founded by Isabel Myers, daughter in law, who you know, who married you know, Peter, anyway, no, no, a number of folks on that, because I’ve been doing the type thing for quite a few years.

Joe Arrigo
I saw like Roger Pearman did an article and it was very good. And I think another lady Doris Fullgrabe, but I think sorry, if I butchered that name, but she’s like in Germany, and she wrote a very long thing on it. So I think there’s sort of a unified front. And not like necessarily circling the wagons type deal. But definitely, just like, we all watched it. There were some things that were Yes, we all agree on. And then there was a lot of it that we were just like, I think we need to discuss that part of it, which is maybe some of what you’re going to talk about. And I think one thing that we should start with, you know, Kathy O’Neill, you’re very familiar with her work. I know, you’ve kind of chatted with her a little bit. At the beginning of the documentary, she kind of mentioned something about this idea of weapons of mass destruction, and how it applies to all aspects of like, discrimination or like secret cabal type blackbox algorithms, can you kind of go into next I know, that’s your specialty. And I know you have a really good point to make.

Keith McCormick
Sure. So, um, to clarify, I don’t know Kathy O’Neill. Personally, I’ve seen her speak. She’s given keynotes at conferences and conferences where I was a speaker, you know, as well, you know, and I’ve assigned her TED Talk, as a discussion kickoff. In my UC Irvine predictive analytics course, I’m quite familiar with the, you know, with the arguments that she makes. So, you know, what we’ve talked a little bit offline is that I think the two-thirds of the film that really has Kathy O’Neill, at its center is very compelling, I think, at least now, if Cathy O’Neil and I suddenly found ourselves in some kind of a panel or something like that, I might not agree with every single, you know, point that she makes in the book. But the basic notion of what she describes, I think, is very convincing. And it’s this that if you’re going to have an algorithm that is going to affect your life, your ability to get a mortgage. Something like the length of time that you’re on parole after prison, ability to get a good interest, credit card, and so on, that those algorithms should be transparent, that we should be able to see what they are, what they’re doing. Now, owners of algorithms like that don’t like to do that because they’re proprietary, and they don’t like to release those details. But when it’s impacting someone like that, I don’t think he really had much choice, there has to be transparency. So she gets a tremendous amount of credit for making that point. And starting that discussion. Where I might differ with her slightly is that she’s left the field to concentrate on things like algorithm audit, so she doesn’t spend a lot of time talking about how we can, you know, fix such things. But if you read her book carefully, you can tell where the real problems are. But the other thing that’s so relevant to this Because there’s the sexism, racism theme that goes throughout the whole movie, is that Kathy O’Neill is very specific about how sexism and racism can manifest themselves in these algorithms. In fact, this is the main thing that she talks about. And again, I find it very compelling. So she thinks, hey, it’s math. Math is inherently objective right now. subjective, its objective, she goes, but watch out. If the data on which it’s based is historical data. And there’s been historical bias, then you’re going to continue to have a problem. So for instance, take something like recidivism, frankly, I wish the whole movie had been about Kathy O’Neill, because then it would have been a movie, you know, but take something like recidivism, um, you might be told, there might be a company develop an algorithm, and the company that’s developing that is told you simply can’t use race as part of the algorithm will say, Oh, no problem. I’ll use a nine-digit zip code. I’ll use neighborhood, I won’t use race, I’ll use that. Okay. And that’s a real, that’s a real problem, right? Because they get around it, or what they do is they say, do you have any family members that have been in prison? So now they’re kind of what you know, particularly if you’re going to let the previous generation? You see what I mean, you know, or do you know, anyone in your neighborhood that’s been to prison might be like a parole question, let’s say, Oh, well, you’re not going to, you’re not going to get parole? Because you know, you know, people. Right? You see, you see the problem? Yeah. So the issue that I have with the other 1/3 of the movie, you know, which was about The MBTI, is they make this leap into the racism and second sexism, but they never explain the mechanism by which that occurs, there’s a lot of innuendoes. But if you listen carefully to Kathy O’Neill, particularly if you bring the contextual lens that I would bring it, somebody that’s built these models, and is trying to be very careful to make the models good models. If you bring that context with you, you can see not only why they might do it, but how they might do it. But all that detail is completely missing on the other third.

Joe Arrigo
I think so too. It’s funny how you and I have I mean, obviously personify plays about so many different things caught my attention. And I think that I’m glad you’re giving credence to that, like what her nuanced stance is. And I think the broader picture of what you’re saying is that, you know, her belief is that sometimes, like this personality credit score, like your social credit score, will be something that is almost like being on a no-fly list at an airport, where it’s like, this person is going to apply to a job through LinkedIn, or indeed, but this back end software is going to say, Oh, this person scored a red flag area in this for this job. So thus, you’re never going to get this job ever again. And there’s no way to access the company to fix your credit score. So there’s going to this is going to plague this person for their life. And that would be a very, that’s a cause for concern. So her her stance throughout the documentary is fine and valid. Where I think someone who’s wasn’t was the Lydia I forgot her last name. But just the kind of I think she ended up kind of being a caricature of somebody of a critic where it was just like, type is inherently not able to see its own racism in western imperialism in its construction, with a lot of ad hominem attacks against Isabel and Carl young. Some Like, this doesn’t feel like I understand the emotional play. But I think it just played itself, in terms of it doesn’t it doesn’t actually carry a lot of weight.

Keith McCormick
I left the movie being a Lydia brown fan, actually. So this might be like our Siskel Ebert moment.

Joe Arrigo
Okay, okay.

Keith McCormick
I know I can, I can see what you mean, because through editing, they would always go back and forth between the two. But I don’t recall what your brown ever saying anything about type. I’m quite certain that she never did. Right? Yes. Although they were always going back and forth. Right? Because she was always talking about there was one particular moment I recall where she was talking about, you know, something being normed on straight white college-aged, college-educated males, right. Yes. But think about what that means, right? Almost certainly what she’s describing there as a bell curve, because remember, she’s a she’s an attorney. She’s coming up this and there’s a scene if I recall where She’s in a meeting preparing for the congressional testimony with Kyle Boehm dad. Roland? Right. Right. So what would she mean about it being normed in that way? It seems to me that she’s describing a bell curve. In other words, she’s basically saying is if you know, if you do a whole bunch of Americans, you know, but by Americans, maybe it’s predominantly straight white college-educated males. Right, right. And then you’re looking at notice, notice, too, that Kyle was scored red on a particular scale, right? That indicates to me that what’s probably going on is you’ve got a bell curve. And that Kyle came out something like two standard deviations above the mean, on what is almost certainly neuroticism on the on the Big Five. Right, right, right, trying to get into some kind of battle rail with with the big five here, I’m just saying that all the language that’s used, and that two-thirds of the movie about Kyle Boehm and hiring is all very normative bell curve, you’re far from the center kind of a thing, right? So the point that Lydia Brown is making, I actually think it’s quite compelling. Now, she’s definitely taking no, take no prisoners style, I think that’s why I found her so charming. But, um, the way that she’s describing it is you have this center that’s described as abled white. Male, right. And if you’re distant from that center, you’re not the norm. And by the way, we’re not going to give you a job.

Keith McCormick
Okay, um, I think most people on the tight computer community would find that argument pretty compelling if it was framed in that context. And it’s not at all clear to me how The MBTI could even if it was used for that purpose, how it could be used for that purpose. Because right, nothing about the instrument that serves that purpose.

Keith McCormick
There’s no bell curve. Right?

Keith McCormick
Right, which is the critique that the Big Five folks make of type. And again, I’m not trying to get into what we’re trying to do, but the movie, not this big, you know, battle between MBTI and Big Five. But the whole idea of the Big Five is that most people are in the center. But some people are out at the tails of the distribution. Oh, and by the way, they’re strange in some way. Right? You know, it’s getting it’s getting a pathology in a way that type does it.

Joe Arrigo
Well, you’re right. And I, maybe I’m talking about so I remember Lydia, she’s the lawyer, but there was a gal. There’s an Asian gal that talked about how she was she felt like because she was autistic. She said she was she’s the one that I’m referring to that became a caricature. So maybe they both have the same name, or I’m getting her name wrong.

Keith McCormick
We’re talking about the same. Oh, we are okay, one. Yeah, she was a young Asian. Yeah, you know what, cystic a woman but I believe she’s also an attorney.

Joe Arrigo
Gotcha. Okay. Okay. So the some of the things that she said that I I’ve kind of found paradoxical, or, like, you’re selling MBTI. At the same time, it’s like, You’re, you’re saying it’s negative. So she said something like, you know, they’re able to sexist racist classes. young, black, college-educated, straight white man with no known disabilities. But then she goes on to say, it’s a good tool, if you’re on a journey of individual self-discovery. But when someone uses it against you, it’s dangerous. And I think no one would ever, that’s not a criticism. Like, of course, if they use it against you in a hiring or professional standard, it would be can be used negatively, but most people use it, and you’ve set it. It’s usually one on one. So it’s for personal growth, where it is most effective. And she’s just Yes, it is. It’s very effective there, but not but part just, I stopped listening because like, well, that’s why people use it. Yeah. You’re selling me here.


Keith McCormick

I find her very compelling. So I listened pretty carefully. I don’t think she was ever talking about The MBTI. No, I get I get what you’re saying when she said self-discovery. For those of us that are fans of Type that goes Oh, she must be talking about type,


Joe Arrigo

I guess. Yeah, I think she was talking about personality in general terms. I think that she’s basically making almost precisely the same argument that Kathy O’Neill is, which is when it’s low stakes, that’s up to you. But when it’s high stakes, that’s a different matter. I could be mistaken. But I have a feeling that Lydia brown isn’t particularly knowledgeable about or interested in The MBTI. But she does care deeply about advocating for populations that might be biased against by a normed instrument. You know, and then have that label, follow them. You know, so I put her in the Kathy O’Neill camp, but I could be mistaken because it’s all done with editing, right? So with editing a lot of fast cuts back and forth.

Joe Arrigo
You and I have different perceiving functions. So we’re both going to take in data differently and have a different determinations. That’s why, you know, it’s better to have an INTP in here rather than INTJ. Because you’re going to bring a different angle. So I don’t think the interpretation is wrong. So I could be wrong to let me go back to the beginning. Because there’s a couple notes to the bullet points i was i was furiously taking notes like, Oh my gosh, I had to stop and I had to keep stewing over something. So I like how the, I think, in the first part had a really good trajectory. Like it started off really good. Had Frank James, had Lindsey Johnson (or Lijo), who’s pretty big in the type community. And it kind of was like, and then even more of Merve Emre came in there at the beginning. She’s like, I’m an ENTJ. So like, I was like, this is an interesting intro, because it’s showcasing people that are popular. And Frank, James probably got like, I don’t know, 10 minutes of time, maybe less, but he got a pretty good section time. And he sold it for me, he was like, I was an INFJ. I didn’t know there were other people in the world that understood the way that I think it felt the way that I felt. And it was just like, you know, having an outlet? And I was like, Yes, yes, this is it, like you’re selling it. And then like Joe said, some of the same thing. And then Megan Levota, she’s in the thread right now. She was, uh, she got a little bit of screen time in there as well. Um, and then they kind of, you know, had a quote from Carl young saying, Man itself, man itself is the danger, we are pitifully unaware of ourselves. Like, yeah, that’s, that’s why you create instruments. So that took off for me, like, there, I can see where they’re gonna take the, you know, they’re gonna, but here’s the evil dystopian future. And I do think some of the points where they brought in David Scarborough, the creator of the unit, unit crew, or unit crew, and then they brought in one of the guys for HireVue, who does the AI facial technology. That’s where the like dystopian future really came in, where it’s like, this is such a big platform where we’re, you know, David Scarborough was talking about, you know, we were doing 70 to 90,000 people a year of all job titles, all from like, lowest level, the highest level. Like, that’s where I can see that being, I mean, so pervasive that there is a credit score assigned to you. Well, you blame, but go ahead. And what are your thoughts there? Well, I’ve

Keith McCormick
got a bunch of things on my mind at the moment, but yeah, the fact that there’s only two or three companies that do that, in that there does imply some tracking, it seems, you know, I’m, I did some research back in the 90s, on the LSAT and, and type as some people that are actually on the call are familiar with. And a lot of people probably don’t remember this, but the essay t items used to be secret, you know, so other than memorizing them, when you took the test that was it. So you know how you can go to a bookstore, go online and do practice questions, you could be that you couldn’t do that it was absolutely secret, right? And you could get into trouble trying to memorize a question, like, share it with somebody or something that, you know, it was it was super proprietary. While the problem was until they started releasing old questions, there was no mechanism by which people could correct mistakes in the questions. So that’s why I kind of have a long history with this. If the models not transparent, it’s gonna problem. So if you combine the lack of transparency with the tracking, you know, I’ve got some issues with that. And, you know, for those of us that are fans are tight, I think we run into, we run into trouble with that, because I think most of us would agree that it can be very powerful for team building, you know, but if we don’t speak strongly in one voice about how we feel about it not being used in hiring. We, you know, we endanger its ability to be used for team building after hiring, which I think we would all, you know, find very valuable. So, I want to, I want to circle back to what you were saying about your friend James, and I know that you interviewed him a couple of weeks ago, and that’s kind of how I first learned that name. Anyway, so I know, he’s super popular. He’s got hundreds of 1000s of, you know, followers. I think he’s, uh, you know, I think he’s great, you know, this kind of comedic take on type and everything. But, you know, they happen to grab a quote, where, you know, it’s this classic, you know, the indicator knows me better than me, you know, kind of a thing, which, you know, is all true. But wouldn’t you agree that most of us outgrow that pretty soon. I mean, in other words, that, in other words, I don’t think I needed the indicator to know that introverted thinking is something that I do. So after that initial like, oh, wow, you know, that’s really powerful. I think what keeps us interested in the indicator for decades, those of us who’ve been doing this for a long time, is what we learn about the functions that we don’t, that aren’t that conscious for, and about others, you know. So I think, again, through the editing, there’s somewhat playing to stereotypes there that you take the indicator, even though the indicator is worth was, you know, in their opinion, you read the description, and you find the description so compelling that you’re still entranced with it years or decades later, almost like it’s some kind of hypnosis, you know, going on or something. And that, that wears off pretty quick, what makes it powerful, is when you realize that through this language, you can connect with someone that you didn’t naturally connect with. But now you have a way to build a bridge there. And also to give an idea of where you might be when you’re older. What with what are some areas, you know, for growth? So when did it really click for you? I mean, for me, just reading a couple of paragraphs description, it’s not like, you know, the clouds parted. And you know, there was singing. For me, it was like the first time you sit at a table with nothing but six or eight iron teepees that you’ve never met before. You know, you go wow, this is pretty, this is pretty powerful. You know, and after 45 minutes or an hour, you’re called back to you know, reconvene with a conference or whatever it is, and you kind of don’t want to leave that table because you’re it’s really powerful. See you soon. I mean, I think I think they’re playing to it. Even though print James was very effective in the in the film, I think, advocating for it. They’re, they’re just playing to the same stereotypes, you know, that we all read these descriptions. And, you know, it’s the whole Barnum effect thing, and we’re completely eaten by that. But that’s not that, for me, at least was not the moment when it completely clicked. And I was persuaded It was the first time I was in a type of like, group, like all four letters, like, right on trivial size, which is why I think what Joyce Mang does is so powerful.

Joe Arrigo
Absolutely, yes, that’s a great project she’s endeavoring on to showing just the spectrum of type and how they actually represent themselves. That’s a that’s an awesome thing she’s doing. You kind of alluded to something that I fell in is this has been criticism as well, Merve Emre said something, like she focused on the seductive language of it with the dichotomies, give you like, it’s the seduction, the cult, the cultish theme of it is she kind of alludes to like you’re hypnotized by type and then you get sucked into this like, even though there’s no like David Koresh type leader in type, like, I guess Carl Jung would be that guy, but not even close. But there’s an idea that, that is, these crazies in the type community are just, you know, the first time they read INTJ they’re like they’re drawn in, and then you can’t get them out. And you can’t use facts with them. And that’s another critique that I felt was also in there as well. Because I kind of alluded to I think Katherine had the, the home the home lab, as she called it. Yeah. So like, yeah, that’s, I mean, the way that I feel like she didn’t realize how that would be taken and calling it a lab, you know what I mean? But, uh, so that there are some valid critiques there was like, well, it was a lab where they, like, was it ethical studying, was it forced, like, that was also a pervasive kind of critique throughout, as well. Yeah, I

Keith McCormick
remember the line that you’re referring to, she says that, you know, well, what is it about this language that people find so seductive? In other words, she’s basically saying, how is it that this many people have been duped? You know, it’s basically what she’s saying. But then she goes, and then the language won’t let you go. And then there’s even a slight turn to the camera. You know, it seemed very staged. And then that, that that moment, there were quite a few moments like that. I mean, during the interviews with Lydia Brown with certainly with Kyle Boehm and Rowan Boehm with Kathy O’Neill. It was just the cameras rolling and they’re just, they’re just talking very naturally. But with the scenes with Merv, am rain I don’t want to sound overly harsh, but they always seemed very staged to me. You know, rehearsed lines, slight turns to the camera, you know, dramatic pauses, lots of music. You know? Yeah,

Joe Arrigo
very ominous. And there’s something so okay. Surprisingly, Merve Emre I don’t think she’s like, doesn’t become the focal point of the story, even though I think like it’s based off her book. I felt like that. I thought there’d be more of her, but move into a different point that I want to talk to you about because I did not even realize this would come up But I actually highlighted as one of the main things I want to talk about. So Richard Thompson is the Senior Director of Research at the Myers Briggs company, the foundation, he talks, he kind of represents he’s the face of MBTI, in this documentary, and he says that it was a big mistake for a lawyer to not copyright the letters. And I was like, well, thank God, because then there being that you couldn’t even talk about it in public without being certified. You know what I mean? So, for me, that was like a, that seemed like a negative comment from the corporation. Yeah,

Keith McCormick


I didn’t know what to what to make of that. But you know, I think there’s also confusion around the relationship of most of us with an instrument, in fact, I would love to have, I would love to have a little study done, where you have a group of individuals that are, you know, going through a feedback session, let’s say, and you skip the instrument, I’m not trying to be overly controversial here. But there are there are a number of folks that will do workshops, and not use an instrument, right? And I’m not sure if people are, you know, aware of this, you know, but, but it’s quite common. And, you know, what’s the kind of thing that people talk about? You know, when a PTA, so let’s say you have, it could be, it could be any number of reasons that you do it. But it seems to me that the only argument for an instrument when you’re doing something like a workshop, is that it reduces the amount of time it takes for folks to conclude what their type is. But you know, so if I’m doing a feedback session with somebody, I’m doing, like, almost like a little type club, but at work at the moment, and I had one on one sessions with a with a half dozen folks that are in this group. And if they take an indicator beforehand, I can usually do a feedback session in about 45 minutes. If there was no indicator, I’m sure it would probably take more like three hours. Okay. But what people forget is, once we’ve taken the indicator once or twice, we never take it again. It’s not like, sometimes I think that someone that is, you know, taking a critical point of view, like, Oh, you know, like that, and the personality brokers is a lot more obsessed with the instrument than us. For us, there’s a there’s a famous one in vidkun Stein (?), he’s one of my favorites, where you climb up the ladder, and then you push it aside, because once you’ve used the ladder to get up, like to the next level, you don’t need it anymore. Okay. For most of us in our personal journey, that’s what the indicator was it kind of helped start the conversation, and then we don’t need to take it again. There’s, um, there’s a question by Megan that I want to get to, as well. But I don’t know if you go…


Joe Arrigo
So I’ll read it. So I have a question for Keith. I’m an IO psych master’s student. And going to the SRP conference in April, when my professor sent out a message to our program about the documentary, she said that it was unfortunate the valid instruments for personal selection are being lumped in with the invalid MBTI. When I reached out and mentioned that they were there are other uses for The MBTI, like improving team building communication, self-development, she asked for resources. Does anyone have any? Yeah, so


Keith McCormick

to two quick things, right. And we can put, we can put something in comments. So yeah, we did the talk. Last week, I posted the reliability and validity numbers for the forum am just in case people want to read it. Now, not everybody is going to know how to read that. But maybe you absolutely will, right, because of your background, but it’s not going to be the percentage, it’s not going to be the percentage retest because that’s not how psychometricians do it. It’s internal consistency, usually as a Chronbach’s alpha, right, so we’ll put that link in there, all you have to do is is Google reliability, validity form m MBTI. And you can find this, it’s on the publishers website, but you can do it, it’s all the numbers, right. But the other thing that you should do is check out the form m manual, right, which is substantial in size here. And what we want to do too, is you want to check out the whole section on the form M and other instruments. So for instance, you’ll find that the Ei scale on the Big Five correlates with the Ei continuous scores on The MBTI point seven. So it’s kind of crazy to say that the big five is like this amazing, perfect thing and that The MBTI is nuts, you know, in the you know, was bogus, because there’s no way that a bogus instrument and about what instrument would be correlated 2.7 right. So but there’s no reputation with an IO psych has been you know, weak for some time, but people really aren’t doing their homework. You know, the other thing that people have been talking about lately, you know, like below the movie premiere and stuff is you know how it was, you know, the whole kitchen table in the 30s thing. It’s just kind of crazy. The forum am was started by Bill and 43. And I don’t want to take any credit away from Katherine. I think she obviously introduced type to the family and the whole nine yards. But you know, as far as the instrument goes, Catherine did not have a huge chunk of the instrument now, right? I get to develop Isabel’s. I heard Peter when he was still alive, give a talk, you know about this. And he was actually saying Katherine sometimes didn’t get enough credit. But that’s because he was talking about an environment where Catherine was almost never mentioned. And it’s because it really was Isabel Isabel that wrote the instrument. Because it’s just simple arithmetic. Katherine was born in 75. The form a was written in 43. Katherine was an elderly woman when the bell began the process of writing the instrument. And it really didn’t become a sophisticated instrument until Isabel met Henry Chauncey in 57. And she was hired as a consultant by ETS and started working with the psychometricians. In ETS, by the way, the big five, what was it was the development on that started in 62. So this whole, like the big five is contemporary. And this was the kitchen table in the 30s. It’s just people just haven’t double-checked the facts. Isabel meets Henry Johnson in 57, they begin working on the 62 manual right away. She has fans at ETS, but she has this real enemy at ETS, David Stricker, who was in his mid-20s at the time and just had a chip on his shoulder, you know, for Isabel and stuff. But that’s really when you get the form f and form G, which somebody like me would have encountered when I was much younger, you know, like in the 90s. And then the form M was done in 98, using completely different items, and a completely different test design approach than Isabel used in 43. That’s why I have a problem with the embedded racism, right? I’m not saying dismissing it, because I racing that argument, as it’s made by Kathy O’Neill and Lydia Brown, but because they explain the mechanism by which this can occur, right. But there is no such talk of the mechanism when it gets to the other side. And sometimes it’s just not true. Like I’ve got my old form G. Can you with these are, are different never seen them most people never had, can you see the little, you know, I’ve met Yeah, that’s I’ve never seen that are used to put these this is like 80s era stuff here. You used to put this over the number two pencil stuff to self-score it.

Keith McCormick
And you’ll never be able to see this on webcam, but I’ve got the TF, male and female, right. Okay, and you probably can you see that, you know, where you’d be able to sit down here, if you were holding up to the sunlight now, you’d be able to see that they’re almost identical. But the reason that Isabel had to make slight differences in the two was Mary used to always describe it this way, it was kind of like a cultural wind. That was kind of pushing. So for instance, let’s say,

Keith McCormick
men, right? You were to come out on the fence between INTJ and INFJ is about what argue take a real close look at INFJ. And there’d be a couple of reasons, you know, for that, right? Okay, we’d be trying to figure out your Auxilary, not your dominant, right. And the cultural wind would be such that as a guy, you would be there’d be cultural expectations that would favor tea, and we’re only talking about a 6040 split anyway. So the reason that Isabel Myers had to struggle, and it really was a struggle to figure out how to address this. It was really just a tiebreaker issue and a couple of items that just didn’t seem to overcome this cultural wind business, but Merve Emre is quite explicit a movie and this is just objectively false. I mean, she’s just wrong about this. She said that Isabel’s belief was that women were biologically unable. I don’t know if you caught that phrase, but that’s a phrase that she uses in the film, right? But that wasn’t at all what was going on says they actually the opposite of what she was arguing there. And she felt that whenever a woman took the indicator, and was on the fence between t and f, that for those women, they probably favorite tea. Right? Because the cultural wind was pushing them towards F in the reverse would be true for men. So this is something that they always struggled with. Mary was just saying, Well, is there some other way to address this? How do we do it, but it was really trying to increase the reliability and validity of the T f scale was the reason to do it. But it was always an issue of debate. And then in 98, when the form M was done, it was addressed in a different way.

Joe Arrigo
Interesting, yeah, you have so much history, that’s just it’s so needed. Now, you know, my generation to know. And I think her daughter, Isabel’s daughter, got a little bit of screen time. Hughes,

Keith McCormick
I think, Great great, granddaughter,

Joe Arrigo
granddaughter, and give gave context on like, all, First of all, World War Two, and tolerance coming out of this era of disharmony. And that, you know, Sally had to make the point that Isabel didn’t like Hitler, and wasn’t a part of this Ubermensch ideal. So like, he was trying to promote tolerance. So like, actively against the things that Lydia would say, formed the framework of it. It’s like, even when I interviewed john Beebe, he’s like, you have to understand the time that was created was trying to preach more tolerance and understanding. But yet the people say no, this is like some people like take this extremist approach that it is an extremist framework. So it’s like, that part of the history of what it is vitally, as vitally important as any other data science point you want to point out in my mind.

Keith McCormick
Mary, when Mary would talk, you know, there’s, um, there’s, um, there’s a quote in the personality brokers. And as you know, I knew Mary quite well, and I was quite young in 87. And then she died around year 2000. So, but between 80 No, no, she, she died after that. Why can’t I remember? But, gosh, what was I gonna say? But oh, you, okay. Mary would be quite explicit about this, when she would give talks, she really felt that the indicator, if it was a good widespread use would promote world peace. You know, I mean, I think, I suppose somewhat of a stereotypical INFP comment, perhaps, you know, and, and it’s easy to try to make, make light of that or make fun of that. And I and I think in the book, it comes very close to, you know, to doing that, but we’re where that quote appears where speech of Mary’s is, you know, was pulled out, as she’s talking about two geniuses. And in the quote, it’s never clarified who the geniuses are. And I think we’re left to suspect that it was, you know, Isabel and Katherine, you know, which is, which is fine if we’re supposed to conclude that, but I think it was because it was in this, it wasn’t really because it was an accurate quote, it’s actually not accurate. It’s because it was in the, in the service of this narrative that it was about these two women that had these beliefs, you know, in the 19th century, and then up through the 30s, that we’re still living with now, because those beliefs are somehow embedded in items even though the items have all been rewritten, right? So right, the quote is there in the service of that narrative, but who Mary man was Isabel noon.

Joe Arrigo
I see. Okay, well,

Keith McCormick
alright, because Mary used to talk about that quite often in the reason that she felt that, that Isabel was a genius. I mean, one she knew Isabel directly. So it was it was her conclusion to draw, but also, you know, spending decades wrestling with this thing. And I know another thing that Isabel found impressive is that, you know, working on the format, through the form he or whatever it was between 43 and 57, that when Isabel was working with the psychometricians at ETS, Mary would always relay that Isabel had intuited a number of the concepts that the psychometricians you know, had learned in school but she had done it by basically persistently wrestling with this thing and trying to get it to work. And I think that would be true of you know, so many folks that make amazing discoveries through just incredibly hard work and persistence. Randomly just thought of something like a Gregor Mendell, you know, who’s who was a monk, you know, the wrinkled pea smooth p guy.

Joe Arrigo
I don’t, but

Keith McCormick
but he’s, um, he’s, he’s famous and he’s famous and heredity, and it was almost he was almost forgotten because he learned about some early hereditary mechanisms long before we knew how DNA worked and stuff like that, but he was a monk that was growing peas and the bag yard of the monastery, you know, but wrestled with these ideas for a long time. So as Mary would relay it anyway and right, I never met Isabel, you right. So I can’t say this firsthand. All I know is that if you saw Marian when she was telling these stories, it was certainly a sincere thing that she felt that Isabel was a genius. Because she wrestled with these ideas, and came up with solutions. Even though she had to come up with these solutions on their own. We forget to that when Isabel went to Swarthmore, around 1920 or so. There were no departments of psychometric psychometrics, they didn’t exist, they did not exist. An interesting biographical detail of Henry Chauncey is that he went to Harvard. He was classic white patrician, you know, kind of a family, you know, very interesting. Guys spoke to him briefly on the phone once. And when he was like, 100. That’s an interesting story in itself, because I asked her about why why he overrode his these younger psychometricians that hated Isabel and 57. Right. And it was, it was partly because she was trying to do something that didn’t involve pathology. And he was very, you know, he was very taken with that. But when he was away after being an undergrad, he was administrative faculty at Harvard. And then he went on to do grad school. He did grad school at Ohio State. Why? Because Harvard didn’t have psychometrics. Harvard didn’t have psychometrics at that, at that time, right. But Ohio State to this day is famous for their psychometrics program. But this whole, you know, they weren’t formally trained, no one was formally trained, no one was formally trained in this stuff at the time. Now, by the time you get to 57, you did have people that had degrees and the stuff, but they were in their 20s. And you’re gonna imagine what a white guy in his 20s who just came out of an Ivy League program, thought of Isabel in her 60s. Right, they did not get along.

Joe Arrigo
This is my main, this is like my main point of anger with these Vox articles, this appeal to elitism and no real psychologists or no, no trusted institution, or magazine, or, or publisher would ever really take MBTI seriously, it’s like, Where do you think this came from? It didn’t like it didn’t come out of the elite schools. It didn’t come out like he came from the Pennsylvania housewife. Right? So it’s like, now they’re appealing to their own? Well, thanks for starting this thing at the kitchen table. But we’ve got it now. Because we’re elite and we fixed all the stuff that you messed up, and we don’t have any prejudices at all, were post prejudicial,

Keith McCormick
that you know that that reminds me of something too, right. So you have to kind of picture how this all went down. So you got the 20s and 30s. What, what Katherine Isabel were doing together, this was the true collaborative part, you know, as I understand it, right, because certain one thing that Maria Marie certainly gets a lot of credit for, she’s read more family letters and correspondence on the Katherine side than probably anyone else, you know, because she found the Catherine cook, you know, letters, but that’s why, you know, I’ve mentioned this before. That’s why if you look at her book of, you know, going out here, all the way until I’m we’re talking chapters one through 12. When you get to 12, you finally get to that ETS period, which to be honest, I there’s not, there’s not a lot there. But you know, two-thirds of the book is on, you know, was on Katherine. And really, as far as they got at that stage before Katherine was elderly is they basically had this kind of little focus group really is what it was they figured out the types of their friends and family. But that experience allowed Isabel to try to develop items. So let me briefly describe how items work. And when I do this, I’m talking about items generally now, not just MBTI. And a little bit about the PSAT too, because remember, in the 90s, I was researching the two of these together. So yeah, so I had to learn quite a bit about the LSAT. So what is about what have done in 43, as you would have had to do a lot of items. I mean, a lot of items, hundreds and hundreds of items. More than 1000 is my understanding then Okay, so that’s the famous three by five cards, right? So why do you need more than 1000 items if the form f has to died at 180, or something like that, and the form q or la 260? I mean, know that Form K? I’m sorry, the Form K is the expanded analysis. You get the subscales. Anyway, there’s all these things to remember. Yeah, but why do you need Why do you need more than 1000 items if you’re only going to publish a couple 100? Well, this is where people don’t Understand how psychometrics works. You can’t use science to write the item, there is no science that will tell you what words to put in a row on a three-by-five card that requires human creativity, right? I think it’s just in our intuition will tell us that right that. That’s why you have to come up with an item, but most of the items won’t work. That’s where psychometrics comes in. So think about what’s happening in 57. Then when Isabel meets Henry Chauncey, she’s got all these items, but she’s trying to figure out which items are going to pass the psychometric tests. So the choosing the items was not done, not done over the kitchen table in the 30s. The selection of the items and the format, and the form g was out of a pool of hundreds of items that Isabelle had done this beta testing on basically, yeah, but that were finalized in the format from the forum. And that’s what people forget. So when I was learning about all this stuff, when I was much younger, I had this conversation with a guy at ETS. And I said, you know, it seems to me that coming up with a sh t question is kind of a creative act. You know, you can’t really science your way through that. You just have to kind of be creative and come up with the item. But then the psychometricians get their shot at it, and they figure out if it’s a good item. He said you might not realize how correct you are. He said my nephew was interning here as a sophomore, undergrad. And he helped write some items. And one of his items made it into the made into the SCT. Okay, think about what I’m describing here now, right? I’m saying that when you write the items, when you’re really doing is you have to make up for it in volume, you have to do a ton of items, because a lot of them simply won’t pass muster. psychometrically right. Okay. So when I was talking to this guy, he asked, and I was starting to get a feel for this, you know, he was one of the psychometricians. At ETS, I was saying, it seems to me you have to come up with a gazillion of these items, and then only a small fraction will make it through. He said you don’t realize how Right you are. My nephew was here for his like summer internship. And he was writing items. And he said one of them made it into the test.

Joe Arrigo
Okay. What’s your point is that that’s negative or that’s…?

Keith McCormick

what I’m saying is, is that’s what Isabel was doing in the 40s is she’s iterating items. But they all say that there was no training, there was no psychometrics involved. Not and it’s not really true. Because Isabel during the form A through E, when she was experiment, the bulk of what she was really contributing was spending years generating items. Yes, items that passed psychometric muster were chosen, starting in 57, working with the PhD psychometricians. At ETS, there’s two distinct phases here. There’s this creative phase where you come up with the items, and then you have to decide which items work. And it gets a little technical, but the whole idea of a chromebox alpha, which is when Megan was asking about the what she could show, you know, the faculty, what a chromebox alpha is, when you look at all the items, do they seem to go together? Do they belong together? Do they make sense? Because Mervyn Emery will suggest that Ei is simply sociability, which is not true. It’s actually multiple subscales, right? You have dozens of right, different things going on there. But that’s the point that I’m trying to make is you’ve got these two distinct phases, the generation of items, and then the choosing of which items pass muster psychometrically. And this collection of items in the form f and g were largely done in that period between 57 and depending on when you want to start there was kinda Isabelle had a falling out with ETS, and they didn’t officially stop until 75. But basically between 57 and 75, and it went through a number of phases during that period. That’s when you really get the form up and gee.

Joe Arrigo
I reached out to Merve Emre’s Team. She was too busy to be interviewed by me. So you know, too busy so I would this would have been great to have her like to discuss that part with her. However, she’s an ENTJ. I don’t think she would back down.

Keith McCormick
Well, in her defense, she was on a podcast today because I just happen to check the Twitter feed just to see if there were reviews and things to to check in. She was on you know, she’s on UK time and she was she was on a podcast. I wasn’t able to catch it live. I’m hoping to catch it and recording because it was it they might have. They did they did announce the time so I think they did do it live but it wasn’t in it was Interview podcast. Yep.

Joe Arrigo
Well, I just want to say, I just want to say for the audience that a lot of these comments that I’m not able to get to Keith and I will definitely respond to them in-kind later. So like, you’re not gonna miss out just cuz I didn’t feature that on the live right now. There is so Merv m re ends, essentially, like as they’re kind of concluding the documentary, she says, we need to walk away from the individual and think about to live in a world with with a sense of community, a world where desires and needs are more collective. That sounds nice. Sounds great. Is there something sinister about that?

Keith McCormick
there’s something strategic about why she’s saying that, but I couldn’t quite, you know, figure, figure it out. I think she’s trying to end on this. I think she is trying to end on an ominous note. But this whole idea that basically, The MBTI ultimately is to keep us in our place. You know, that there are there are people that are born to be leaders, most of us are born to be followers. And that The MBTI was developed to enforce a social hierarchy.

Joe Arrigo
Because he did say, I don’t think it was Ashley Murphy. I think it was Lydia, we’re saying that. We still have eugenics as our mainstream science, but we’d cloak it in personality. Like that’s, that’s funny. That’s just makes me laugh, because like, that is so untrue. But it’s like, it’s such a provocative point. That now people have to consider it like, Wait, do we actually have this? We’ve just reclassified eugenicist as personality type and I’m like that I just had I had a pause and laugh.

Keith McCormick

Well, but again, I’ve left the movie being a Lydia Brown, you know, fan? I think it would be like for instance, there’s skepticism about a polygraph right. I’ve never researched that. So I yeah, I couldn’t tell you how accurate a polygraph is. But you wouldn’t want you know, some kind of situation where, oh, in fact, there’s an interesting, um, they really missed an opportunity because I love Susan Cain. You know, I think you know that. And there’s a section in Susan Cain’s book where she actually talks about failing a polygraph. And she was being honest on the polygraph, but the whole process made her very anxious, you know, he failed the polygraph as a result. And I would imagine, you know, as somebody that was, in the army, when I was a, I was younger, every once in a while, I’ll get approached to do you know, some kind of project where I have a look where I have to look at data, it’s the kind of data that you have to see as a clearance probably sounds super mysterious, like you’re being some kind of a spy. It’s usually something very innocuous, like, the range of ammunition or something like that. But there’s certain things where people are allowed to say, or like the top speed of an aircraft or something that’s usually the stuff that’s classified, it’s not as mysterious as it is. But I could imagine having a failed polygraph somewhere, in some record, in never being able to be able to get, you know, a clearance, you say that that’s what I think Lydia Brown is talking about. Okay. Now, obviously, with eugenics, it’s trying to decide who can reproduce. Right, right. But the notion that somebody would be permanently unemployable, I’m on I find, you know, I find that argument, you know, compelling You know, I think again, I think these models have to have transparency but that’s because I was associated What do you black Brown with the Kathy O’Neill part of the narrative? I will think what are your Brown has much knowledge of nor much of an opinion about The MBTI I could be wrong about that. But I think she was simply being included back and forth in the editing.

Keith McCormick
There’s an interesting moment to where Merve Emre says almost the exact echoes the almost the exact same phrase that what are your brown does so Dr. Brown, you know, rattles off ablest sexist, and so on. Right. But again, he’s talking about the hiring business. And then towards the end of the movie, Murphy, M. Ray says that almost exact phrase. And I could be wrong about this, but I strongly suspect that the Lydia Brown was recorded. They were already you know, trying to put the film together. And it was, wow, this would be such powerful bookends of Merve Emre comes in, you know, representing the other part of this narrative, you know, the narrative that begins in 1875. With Katherine is that the MBTI narrative and echoes almost the exact same language as Lydia Brown. So in other words, I think to some degree, as an audience, we can be manipulated by the editing here because staged it well, because I mean, what is the likelihood that that exact raise almost like in the same word order would be used. I think that was added after the Lydia Brown, you know, was there to create greater cohesion than otherwise would exist because two-thirds of the movie that was on the hiring narrative was powerful and the other 1/3 could not possibly have held up the weight of the documentary on its own. There just wasn’t anything there. Okay, innuendo.

Joe Arrigo
So, let me give my real name is I want to say two things. One, I would say this is the best documentary ever called the persona on HBO Max has ever been released. So I can I can definitively say those words. Secondly, I know personally, people in the type community that were followed around for days recording their like a live typing session, neuroscience eg scans and that were totally dismissed from the document or not even given a little bit of credence to in talking to them, it’s like, well, now I can see why they had a they had the here’s what we’re going after, if we don’t get it, we’re just gonna dismiss all of it. So I felt like these prominent people in the community. I have to say Joel and Antonia and Dario Nardi, they were interviewed for it. And then all that stuff was dismissed. So it’s like, Well, clearly, you couldn’t even give credence to a little bit of it. So that was disingenuous and not intellectually honest. So I just want to say that forgot about that point. But some of the Twitter action has pointed to Hey, I was interviewed, and we were talking to them all day. They didn’t put one second of our stuff in there. So therefore, I think it’s disingenuous.

Keith McCormick

Yeah, so I wish I wish they had made a whole documentary about Cathy O’Neal’s book, because Kyle, bam was just one I would give, I would give that two-thirds of it a pretty good rating, I think, actually. But the thing is, there’s about a dozen chapters in Cathy O’Neal’s book. And some of those other case studies are really powerful. when I’ve had students at UC Irvine, exposed to some of those case studies, most of them will actually pick the, the teacher evaluation one as one of the most powerful where teachers were, you know, were fired, you know, because then an evaluation and again, there was a lack of transparency. And there would be requests made of the, of the algorithm authors, you know, how does this work? My evaluations were really strong. Um, you know, other faculty would sit in the back of my room, and everybody thought I was an excellent teacher, but now I’m fired. And I can never work again. Right. Um, some of that stuff was really, really powerful. I think they should have made a whole documentary about that.

Joe Arrigo
Yeah, I want to include this year, Megan said that I was interviewed, and I mentioned that I had an INFJ for Africa had reached out to me and I said, instead, I changed her life. They even tracked down interviews, the subscriber ly Joe, Lindsey Johnson also said they interviewed one of her subscribers from Iraq. So like, I didn’t even know that till right now. And I’m like, you couldn’t have included that? Like, I don’t know. So I want to say it was during the Omni wanna hear that it was edited for time. So when it changes, like, that’s how I got into type, it changed my life, and I’m a stubborn INTJ. So when I see like that it can apply, and there are benefits for it. I just think you got to show both sides and let the audience decide. And that that was not present here.

Keith McCormick
Yeah, you know, there’s something that was a powerful experience for me years ago, I used to love to go to the kept conferences. Yeah, it would be every other year because they rotated through there were four of them. I don’t think I’m gonna remember all them. But there was like a type in counseling one, but the one that I wanted to mention was type and culture. And what was so powerful about that is you would learn about different, you know, there was a moment I think, her name, Doctor, she’s a PhD, but I think also attorney, Dr. agenne. Want to remember. Oh, yeah, an American woman that was, was, you know, also part of the congressional testimony. She made, she made a comment, which I believe to be quite accurate, where she said, you know, if you normalize things in an American population, you run into trouble and translating The MBTI has always been a tough thing. So I remember one of the panelists at the typing culture conference talking about introversion extroversion in Russia, as opposed to in the US, you know, things that most of us in the audience wouldn’t have had first hand knowledge about. Just kind of a funny thing. They were mentioning a scene in Dr. Zhivago where they shake hands because they’re going to be parting or something like that said Russians would never be that way to be crying and being and you know, things you know, but talking about that was Very, very interesting because Japan was one of the first cultures, one of the first countries where they did a proper translation of The MBTI. and Japan is generally thought of as a culture where introversion is treated very differently than here in the US, Susan Cain, perhaps even you know, talks about this. So that’s fascinating, right? Is that what happens when you go to measure something like introversion, extroversion and another culture, having grown up in that environment, type wise, in other words, in this environment of learning type, those are the kinds of events that I was going to this whole idea that you have a like embedded race or racism in the instrument. I’m, I’m open to the argument, I’ll listen. But I’ve got to hear a mechanism for which That’s true. And I don’t I don’t get how if it was, you know, anyway, I’ve already made that point. Right. But you already know me. I know how the racism can be embedded when Kathy O’Neill was talking about the algorithms. If you’re going to make the same claim about The MBTI, you got to tell me how you got to kind of walk me through, you know, the data scientist, I mean, wants to hear how this is happening. Right? You can’t just share a letter from the 20s. and convince me that 100 years later, that it’s embedded in the instrument, right. What have been my experience?

Joe Arrigo
No, that’s the angle we want. So I think we, you know, I think we have given a lot of info to the audience in this hour, and one minute and 28 seconds we’ve gone here. I think we’ve covered a lot. I do want to probably end the show now. Because I do want to get to these comments. I think there’s so much more to be said. But I think I’ve gone over everything I need. Is there anything else that you feel like we still need to discuss?

Keith McCormick
No, I hope I hope the conversation continues. And I would.
I’ll say one final thing, because I do sincerely hope that I get a chance to chat with Margaret Emery at some point. Maybe she made a comment that I found fascinating because she basically made a claim that personality is performative. You know, or that personality is a performance. Right? I could be mistaken. But I believe that she’s making a tangential reference to Judith Butler there. And if she were to pursue that Judith Butler is famous for saying the gender is performative, right? It’s very famous academic. Okay, if I’m right, and that’s what Mervyn Emery was referring to. I think now, I wouldn’t necessarily agree with her conclusions. But that’s something interesting. So rather than just kind of leaving that hanging there, I think she should probably just be more forthcoming with what she thinks is really going on, and just kind of put it out there. So that we can talk about it, because that would be fascinating. In fact, if she could make that claim, it probably would have been a more interesting book than the personality brokers, if she could take that, that notion, that personality is performative. and pursue that at book-length, it probably would have been a much more interesting book. So perhaps up in an interview, at some, some point not necessarily with us or with whatever form she chooses, it’d be really interesting if she would pursue that.

Joe Arrigo
I mean, we’re, we’re fine. We would, we would be great to interview I would love to get her and I will, I’ll work on it again. I’ll talk to her guy, also named Joe. I will try to get in touch them again, to say like, what would it take to get you on here? Because like, it’s not like we’re gonna tell her she’s terrible. And no one read her book, like we would treat her fair. So I’ll work on it. I’ll try to reach out on Twitter

Keith McCormick

questions in advance.

Joe Arrigo
I told him that much. Yeah, I get all that. So Keith, up this last couple of weeks getting to like understand your side of MBTI why like you strengthen the arguments and that you really helped me in some of the things that I fell out because I’m not a man of science. And I there’s some arguments here that I really need to use this kind of AI to just like a weapon against the the people that talk trash about type, but also just to have a better historical viewpoint of where types have been, where it’s going and to not dismiss and have some contextualization of what it’s about. I hope our audience here today really understands that. Like, we don’t believe that there’s any sort of embedded negativity or nefarious notion in type and that everyone can use it as a tool for self-discovery. That’s pretty much where the show ends! So I appreciate it. Keith, and if something more component comes up, I’d love to do another live with you.

Keith McCormick
Sure. That’d be great. I would enjoy it.

Joe Arrigo
And what’s my audience? Sorry, go ahead.

Keith McCormick
You’re just gonna say what’s hope the conversation continues in the comments below this when it is No hits the LinkedIn fee.

Joe Arrigo
Absolutely. And thank you to everyone in the comments for keeping the discussion going, I hope I hope it was worthwhile. So, talk to you all soon be good thanks!

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Type Talk: The 16 Personality Types That Determine How We Live, Love, and Work (1988) by Otto Kroeger and Janet Thuesen

Image result for typetalk book

Best intro to Type

Knowing where to begin the journey of understanding Type can be a bit challenging. After all, there is no “right” way to look at personality, and many of us in the community have been introduced through many different doors.

Type Talk was one of the first 3 books related to MBTI that I finished, and still to this day I reference it before a session with my clients. In addition to being a fabulous reference for the practitioner such as myself, it is highly accessible to the newbie just breaking into the MBTI world. The background of personality and the history of its progression eases the reader into the Type world, and truly cannot be missed when discussing landmark personality books.

Image result for castle

On par with David Keirsey’s Please Understand Me, Type Talk gives a highly thorough and differentiated explanation of the dichotomies. When I say differentiated, I mean that the reader will clearly be able to delineate what the difference between a Sensor (S) and an iNtuitive (N) is based on the descriptions.

Expands understanding of Keirsey Temperaments

Type Talk takes what David Kiersey created with the 4 Temperaments and expands them into many different manifestations we see in day-to-day life. Literally, Type Talk is filled with examples of Temperament in regards to fashion, parenting, management, self-management, decision making, dating/romance, career success, etc. 

Image result for keirsey temperaments

As you become more aware of the Temperaments, you start to notice patterns. You will say, “That guy dresses like an NT…her speaking style is very SP…she expresses her feelings in a very NF way.” This is not labeling or discriminatory. This is noticing a pattern and applying a framework to it. In addition to helping you empathize and understand others to a deeper degree, this pattern recognition becomes a very fun game that helps you sharpen your typing skills.

Getting a solid benchmark understanding of temperaments is the way I personally started to cement the Types in my head. As I have mentioned previously in videos, articles, and interviews, there is no way to possibly memorize how ALL the 16 types act, speak, or react to things; especially at the beginning of understanding Type. Breaking them down by temperament is the place to start that helps encapsulate their essence.

Sex Differences in Type

Image result for mbti and gender

Type Talk takes a very compassionate view of the differences between gender and Type. The reality is the reality, no matter how much we rally against it in the modern age. This book recognized the reality, along with the unfairness of gender differences in Type, back in 1988 (before it was cool).

An ESTJ female is going to be received much differently than an ESTJ male, particularly in a corporate environment. According to Type Talk, the desired “femininity” that most corporations look for, is not usually present with the ESTJ female. You tend to see a much more “masculine” and driven person who clashes with the prejudiced view of what a female “should be.”

Image result for men vs woman

The ENTJ female will likely experience the same kind of pushback, both from her male and female counterparts. Certainly, there will be a level of intimidation that is felt by colleagues of the ENTJ and ESTJ female, but to deny this reality is to assign blame on things that aren’t actually real. Meaning, your standard sniping remarks at sexual frustration, chip on the shoulder, daddy issues, etc.

Consider the other dynamic which would be the INFP male. The INFP male typically does not exude the standard aggressiveness that is expected of a male in Western society. To counter this, INFP males may overcompensate and attempt to exude hyper-masculinity as a means of fitting in with their male counterparts. Understanding this phenomenon in both yourself and others can help cut to the core of problems that may arise at work or in your personal life.

Concept of Typewatching

Typewatching is the practice of Typing people in your world as you start to notice patterns, as I’ve mentioned previously. You do not need to send them an assessment to know they are an ISFP. Especially with people you live or work with, observational and anecdotal data are more than enough to get a precise Typing of someone.

Image result for people watching

As with anything we start to do on a daily basis, you get really good at Typing people, and much faster. This doesn’t mean you get more accurate per se, but that you hone in on patterns of activity that you can quickly latch onto when making Typing decisions.

My Rating

Type Talk deserves a 90/100. It’s nearly the perfect book to intro Type to the world, and it genuinely takes a broad approach to the subject. Though it does not cover the cognitive functions — and it doesn’t need to– there is hardly a topic that isn’t touched on throughout. 

Albeit written in 1988, it has stood the test of time, much like the field of personality and MBTI. 

Buy a copy here! 

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