The goal of this short essay is not to proclaim the genius of the INTJ, but rather to inspire them to make their unique views known in a world that is heavily dominated by a select few voices.
When I’ve spoken previously about cognitive diversity, it was in reference to the hiring process and creating amazing project teams.
But cognitive diversity can be applied anywhere.
It’s time for the Thought Leadership space, particularly on LinkedIn, to get the perspective of INTJs in order to prevent the echo chamber from becoming too large.
When a social network becomes one-sided in its use of cognitive functions (explained below), it rejects many other strongly needed and vitally important talking points.
To explain what I mean in as concise a way as possible:
Right now, the most widely used function within the Thought Leadership space is known as Extraverted Feeling (written as Fe in the Typology world). Extraverted Feeling can be simply characterized as Harmony, Togetherness, Unity. Fe takes the prevailing norms, mores, and social niceties and adopts that as the mechanism of decision-making. It uses whatever is currently trending as the lens to view the world.
INTJs and Cognitive Functions
All 16 MBTI types have a unique orderof cognitive functions that they use to decipher information and then make decisions based on that information.
There are 8 of them:
Ni
Ne
Si
Se
Ti
Te
Fi
Fe
For the INTJ specifically, Extraverted Feeling (Fe) is a highly under-utilized and often under-valued function that falls far down in their function stack.
Simply put, most INTJs do not value harmony and togetherness in the way that other types do. ESFJs and ENFJs value it the most, and ENTJs value it the least.
My argument is that this is a good thing, especially for a platform like LinkedIn that is crying out for a counterbalance to the prevailing Thought Leadership.
When everything starts to sound the same and the same types of posts are trending, then you know you are sitting inside a thought bubble.
I say there needs to be just as much cold, hard, and objective truth as there needs to be empathy, warmth, and inspiration. Because the INTJ is activelynot considering the prevailing wisdom when they form thoughts, they can contribute a wholly fresh perspective.
Tips for LinkedIn Thought Leadership
So what do I recommend for INTJs to do (and other introverts, for that matter)?
Propose a solution that is completely opposite from what others are saying. Ask your audience for feedback.
Remark on current trends and explain why you see it differently. Ask if others see this as well or if you are by yourself?
Study influencers that use Fe (Extraverted Feeling) and attempt to emulate that style in 1 or 2 posts. See how it feels. Do you still feel authentic or do you feel gross? Reiterate until you find that happy medium between bold and inclusive.
Understand that many thought leaders don’t know it all, yet they speak with authority. Getting caught in that loop of “ I just need to study it some more before I can speak on it” will be detrimental to getting your ideas out in the world.
Make a concerted effort to do a short video so people can see how you present yourself. Building trust is the best way to begin a Thought Leadership journey. From experience as an introvert, there is a magical thing that happens when you click “record” that transforms you into an Extravert. The more you do it, the more you will build that confidence.
Because INTJs are a rare personality type, their unique style of perception is greatly needed on LinkedIn. Corporate thought leadership risks falling into a very loud echo chamber that doesn’t consider other points of view, which then ultimately affects the greater society. My hope is that other INTJs join me in finding their voice and making their insightful views known to the world.
To book me for an MBTI session or learn more about me, find me here:
From the very first days in studying MBTI, you are told that under no circumstances are you to use Personality Type as a gauge of whether someone should be hired for a certain position. To do so would be outright discriminatory and open your company up for litigation– and you would certainly lose.
But, in all honesty, people tend to develop skills that go with their type. And consider, in the extreme case of only hiring by type, would retention or performance be worse? No. In fact, it will likely improve.
We know from simply being alive that there are certain personalities that work splendidly in a role, as if they were born to do that job. Other people, we couldn’t imagine them lasting 2 seconds in that same role. In this way, we recognize personality existsand that we ALL have gifts that fit certain roles. Not just in a corporate sense, but in the overall societal structure.
We also have an excess amount of studies showing that certain types cluster in specific fields of study, career, and hobbies. This is another solid data point that shows that personality exists.
There are those who will exclaim that they know an INFP who is a top-level CEO – and undoubtedly this is true, and this isn’t the argument – and that their anecdote proves something. All it proves to me is that there are outliers within the spectrum of the 16 personality types that fit into niches you’d never expect. We can’t use outliers to deny reality.
My main argument against the ethical use of MBTI is that itshouldbe used as a way to hire better candidates. But not in the way you think. It’s still ethical AND a win for both sides of the transaction.
And the nuance I want to offer is that I am not advocating for only interviewing those that take a pre-employment assessment and get those 4 specific types you’ve chosen to be a good fit for the role.
No, no, no.
I advocate for asking specific type-related questions that would be almost impossible for someone outside that Type to answer without sounding fake, rehearsed, or downright awkward.
But there are two challenges. The first is assuming people honestly report their type. A very close friend of mine has been a corporate recruiter for 15 years, and his company uses an MBTI assessment during pre-screening of candidates. He says over 90% tends to fall into 1 of 4 types, ESTJ, ENTJ, ESFJ, ISTJ. Funny story, and one good example of why the MBTI during pre-employment is going to be skewed anyway. People say what they think a company wants to hear in order to get hired: ”What does this employer want me to score?”
Then there is the second challenge: companies hiring in a simplistic way without attending to blindspots. Someone might think, ‘Mary is our top performer, Mary has ESTP preferences, therefore we should hire more ESTPs.’ Well, a few more ESTPs will likely be fine, even a boon. But what are the blindspots? The team will be brittle. And it will eventually blow up. In real life, every team needs an NT for strategy, an NF for diplomacy, an SJ for logistics, and an SP for tactics. In short, every team needs cognitive diversity.
A good example is hiring for a customer service representative. We know the qualities we would want as a customer and as an employer: empathetic, caring, wanting to help, calm, ability to de-escalate, great listener, etc. From an MBTI perspective, you would be looking for 4 types: INFJ, ENFJ, ISFJ, ESFJ.
But again, the idealism we’ve created around the ethical use of MBTI and hiring practices says we can’t just write on the job description: “Must score [these types] to be considered for this role.” So what we do is formulate questions based on our deep understanding of Type and the internal mindset of those Types.
Here are some practical ways you can implement some interview questions that directly use MBTI without directly using MBTI.
For the customer service rep:
Describe how you experience empathy.
What do you think is the best way to de-escalate an irate customer?
What is your goal during a customer service call?
Before you answer a call, what thoughts go through your mind?
What does it feel like when you solve a problem for a customer?
I am attempting to get to the inner dialogue of the candidate. I am not trying to ask too many questions about ‘how to do it’ but rather the mindset around doing it. My experience when asking ‘how to do it’ questions is that you get the ideal response. You get the response that the candidate knows is the right one, whether or not that’s their actual experience of it.
The way to combat these idealized responses is by completely avoiding questions that can be prepared for. Questions like, “Name a time when you had to overcome a challenge? How do you handle conflict? Tell me about yourself.” These are guaranteed to elicit canned responses.
Here’s an example of generalized questions that work no matter the role:
What is your philosophy around [select activity]?
Where do you see [select industry] going?
What are the top 3 skills you need to be a great [select role]?
How should people approach you with new ideas?
I propose these types of questions because they are hard to prepare for and lend themselves towards honest, on-the-spot answers. The overall goal is to receive real responses and not those that can be Googled.
To book me for an MBTI session or learn more about me, find me here:
Yeah, I think it’s a really good question. The vast majority of people are unhappy with dating apps. We knew there was a market for this specifically. And we also saw that there was no better way of matching people. In this day and age when technology is so advanced, why are people matching on the basis of photos??
Yeah, the existing dating apps are quite superficial is, I guess, yeah. And then, you know, we have had quite a lot of success! So we had over 470 couples find love our app, and I think that that then helps it spread through word of mouth.
Joe Arrigo
So it’s 470 couples, and then there are two marriages…
Lou – ESFJ
Yeah, we’ve had two weddings that we know about. There’s probably more that we don’t know about. Yeah, so these are known success stories.
Joe Arrigo
Do you find that there are certain Types that tend to be on the app more than others?
ESTJ is the rarest type on the app actually. There are quite a few ISTJs, though. There are more introverts on the app than extraverts.
Joe Arrigo
I feel like there’s already a stereotype that’s been broken with the dynamic that you two have, which is just Jess is the INFP, Lou you’re the ESFJ. So what is that about? How did you break that stereotype?
Lou – ESFJ
Jess is the boss. She’s always doing the talking.
Jess – INFP
I guess like looking at our lives bigger picture is definitely clear that Lou’s the Extravert rather than me. Like Lou has a massive group of very loud girlfriends. And I spend more time by myself or like with smaller groups of friends or one-on-one. So we are more typically kind of introverted/extraverted. In everyday life, you’d be able to tell.
Lou – ESFJ
I always say I’m really happy being back office. Like, Jess is is so good at being front office. Which is funny being the ESFJ, you would think I’d want to be at the forefront.
Jess – INFP
Yes, I have a background, I used to work at an investment bank. So you know, kind of financial modeling and dealing with investors and things like that, I’ve got quite a lot of experience.
Joe Arrigo
My assumption is that people create apps because something happened to them–they had a horrible experience with dating apps– that they are compelled to make this experience better. What was the catalyst? Was there something in either of your lives that made you create So Syncd?
Jess – INFP
Yeah, so I’d say that point is so true. I dated someone… an INTJ. And he was Australian. And we actually ended up moving to Australia together.
But after a year, things didn’t work out. So decided to take a year off to travel. I started looking into Myers Briggs and compatibility. And it was, you know, in lots of different ways, I was reading things, on Reddit, Quora blog posts, talking to people that I met, etc. And then by the end of the year, I saw such strong correlations. So we kind of we started applying to all our friends and family and family, and you could just see this huge correlation. And I was like, yeah, it works. Let’s do it!
Joe Arrigo
You’ve posted about this recently on LinkedIn; about the rarity of female companies getting venture capital money. It’s amazingly low. Do you want to speak to that?
Jess – INFP
I was a bit shocked when we started fundraising! So, last year, 2.3% of all venture capital investment went to all female-led businesses. The bottom line is, it really has to change. And I’ve actually taken on a really exciting additional role as the UK lead for Women in Tech. I’m actually planning on doing a panel quite soon, around this topic.
Joe Arrigo
Yeah! It’s like they’re really scrutinizing the money they give to women. That’s why women-led businesses tend to do better per dollar invested. But I just think in terms of idea generation, that should just have its own merits.
Jess – INFP
Yeah, I mean, I think a lot of it is unconscious bias. There was an interesting article in Harvard Business Review saying that two-thirds of the questions that men get asked in fundraising meetings are promotion oriented (excitement, hype, wonderful positivity)
But then two-thirds of the questions asked to women are prevention-oriented? “What if you miss this target? What if another company does this better?
And it’s very hard to just email an investor and get them to reply, essentially, to get them to invest.
Joe Arrigo
What you can talk about in terms of how the app is doing thus far?
Lou – ESFJ
We’ve had over 60,000 signups and over 470 success stories, including 2 weddings! When we launched in our first month, we had the same amount of signups we expected in the first year! Yeah, that was really good.
The focus is going to be on the product and the marketing. But really, we’re focusing on finishing the app first, and then we’ll be doing a kind of big marketing push, starting with New York.
Joe Arrigo
What is the process for signing up? Are you on the App Store and Android?
Lou – ESFJ
Yep! So on the iOS and Android App Store, you can download the app, and sign up using your email and the usual things. And then you can either take the five-minute personality test, or you can input your personality Type, if you know it already.
To book me for an MBTI session or learn more about me, find me here:
This discussion has been edited for time and clarity.
Deanna
The ISTJ is not the most boring type. I would like to say, we’re not robots. That’s one thing that bothers me is when you watch the memes or whatever about the 16 personalities, ISTJ is always the robot. It’s always like, the person who’s kind of this mindless AI that doesn’t actually use their brain. I take issue with that. Now, I will say that people have called me a machine. But that’s different. Because I’m very productive. And I’ll take that as a compliment. But not a robot.
Joe Arrigo
You have Extraverted Thinking (Te) just like the INTJ in the second slot that is focused and has determined. It has a machine-like quality to it, definitely. I don’t think that that is just the ISTJ, it’s just really a symptom of being a solid extroverted thinker.
ISTJs are Not Robots
Deanna
I’ll give it as like, an aspect of my personality, but I feel like it’s blown out of proportion. And I guess that’s what memes are, right. Because I have layers, I have an actual personality. I’m not just like this boop, boop, boop, bop robot. And I mean, I can have fun, I can be playful. I can do all those things. Granted, I’d like to schedule fun, I like to say, at this time of this day is when I’m gonna go have fun. But I plan it in because I appreciate and I know the value of having fun.
Joe Arrigo
And you can be fun, you like to schedule many different things. You have an eclectic taste of things you like to do like outdoor activities and different kinds of media you like to consume. For those that classify the ISTJ in a very humorous way as not having a sense of humor or being kind of like a party pooper, that is just not been my experience being married to you.
Deanna Arrigo
You’re saying I’m fun?
Joe Arrigo
I’m saying you can have fun.
ISTJs and Tradition
Deanna
The other thing that I take issue with is that they always talk about how we uphold tradition. That whatever has been done, we will continue to do. and I understand where that comes from. I take issue with it because it kind of implies that we blindly follow the rules. I don’t think that’s what we do. If it’s something that doesn’t make sense to me, like, I don’t care how long you’ve been doing it this way. We’re going to improve it, we’re going to fix it, we’re going to optimize it, we’re going to make it more efficient.
Joe Arrigo
Yeah, I don’t really have much more to add to that.
Deanna
One thing I will say that is correct when people describe the ISTJ is that we are structured. And I think the reason behind it is that, to us, “Discipline is Freedom.” If you give us guidelines, and you say, I need you to get XYZ done, and here’s your map, here are your boundaries, we’re happy with that.
Discipline
Whereas a lot of other people, if you give them boundaries, they feel confined, they feel restricted, they hate it, they get rebellious, and they break all the rules. For us, we say, ‘please give us all the rules, we’ll follow them.’ If you are very vague about something and you say, I need you to do this, but I don’t really care how it’s done, to us, it’s a heart attack. ‘I don’t know what you want. I don’t know where to start’.
How to Speak to an ISTJ
Joe Arrigo
Advice for speaking to an ISTJ would be if they were going to come over to your house, or they were going to arrive somewhere, you would never say something like, ‘you know, just show up in a little bit. Or something like, “Hey, I’m on my way over, do you want me to get anything from a store while I’m on my way over? Yeah, “just get whatever you think is right.”
This is NOT good direction! ISTJs are wondering, “Do you want me to bring drinks, food… WHAT?” There are too many unknowns in the scenario. There is no framework here are guidelines to work within. The structure of your request leaves too many options on the table.
Deanna
And comfort is a huge thing for ISTJs for kind of two aspects. Physical comfort:I don’t want to be uncomfortable in the clothes I’m wearing, for example. So always make sure the clothing I wear is functional and not really flashy. And then there’s also mental comfort, which is what you were getting at. You’re going to cause me so much strife if you don’t give me enough guidelines. So if I know what’s coming, and I know what to expect, and a path forward, that’s my mental comfort.
Joe Arrigo
She’s really talking about the axis of Introverted Sensing (Si) and Extraverted Intuition (Ne). The Ne part is a mental discomfort when there are too many options, too many alternatives, too many different outcomes. This can cause rigidity and paranoia for an ISTJ and lead them to short-circuit.
Deanna
I want to know, what are the truths and untruths about ISTJs?
The Truth about the ISTJ
Joe Arrigo
One of the truths is not understanding subtlety. And that comes across a lot in jokes. The worst thing I can do is to do deadpan humor, or to say something in jest or sarcastically. It’s very confusing for the ISTJ because they will take you at face value. They’re very confused: ‘Was that a joke? Were they being mean? What did I miss?’ Should I laugh now?’
Another thing is that Thinking types tend to have a very non-expressive face when they’re listening or when they’re gathering information. And I’ve described your face all the time as the ‘Mona Lisa face.’ It’s overused, this idea of the resting RBF, but I think that’s just Thinking types are not trying to portray emotion. And I think people, especially dominant Feeling types, might look at the ISTJ and go, “oh, there’s the robot.”
Mona Lisa ISTJ face
One misconception that I’d like to dispel is that ISTJ can actually be good brainstormers. It doesn’t always come across in the negative way that inferior Ne might which is catastrophizing. They’re optimizers they can say, “I see your idea and here’s how we make it cohesive. The ISTJ will use their Si (Introverted Sensing), to keep you on track using Memory.
ISTJs are Optimizers
Deanna
It works for me because I’m happy that you came up with the idea. If someone told me to come up with the idea… Nope! But when the idea is already there, I can say, “Okay, this is how we make it more efficient.”
Joe Arrigo
Another thing about the ISTJ is that they’re good public speakers. Not dynamic per se, but not afraid of delivering in front of large crowds. You do presentations, you do pitches. You would think that introverts are not naturally comfortable in that setting. You’re not scared of being out of order when you speak or getting jumbled in your mind. So I think that really comes across well, for the ISTJ and any Extraverted Thinking (Te) + Introverted Sensing (Si) type that yes, ISTJs are solid public speakers.
ISTJs can be good presenters
Deanna
I am proud to be an ISTJ! We’re hard-working, we’re determined, okay, I get that. But also, because of that, we’re dependable and loyal. We’re really good loyal friends, you can count on us. We will show up, we’ll be there. You know, we’re just solid. And I think that’s a positive thing. And the memes portray it as boring and dependable. But I think it’s good, fun, happy, AND dependable. And I would say we’re far from boring people.
To book me for an MBTI session or learn more about me, find me here:
An ISTJ educates the audience on how to deal with an INTJ significant other
Transcript edited for time and clarity
Joe Arrigo
The subject of our conversation is why the INTJ is the worst spouse. So that’s me (the INTJ). So the first question I think I want to know is, what about me as the INTJ makes you the most aggravated?
Deanna
Okay, and this is from an ISTJ perspective, so you have to consider that. But one thing that really bothers me about INTJ is that they’re not detail-oriented. So underdeveloped when it comes to paying attention to detail, it’s very aggravating. So, for example, you just can’t be bothered…if I tell you, hey, the dishwasher needs to be loaded XYZ in a specific order… I’ll give you a reason, because as an ISTJ, I would want that reason, I figured the discussion’s over, we’re good. But it would probably take you three to four times doing it before it would stick.
Joe Arrigo
It’s not like I don’t want to do a good job. It’s just that as you start to do something physical, I just drift back into my own head sometimes. And then I’m like, ‘Oh, I don’t remember anything she told me about the specifics of the task.’ So all I heard was ‘do the dishes and then everything else I forgot.’
Deanna
It originally was so puzzling to me before I really understood MBTI. Because, as an ISTJ, details matter so much so that if you get the details right, then the big picture comes together. They add up and you get the big picture. But as an INTJ, for you, it’s opposite. You think big picture and you say, ‘all those details, they’ll be filled in later.’
Joe Arrigo
Yeah, the picture is what matters, the grand scheme. And then because that seems to be clear in my head, the details will naturally fill themselves in later. It’s just like, as long as I can see it, all the other details fill themselves in. And that’s why I can see myself being annoying to you at first, once you first get in a relationship with an INTJ. So what would you say took you the longest to understand about me?
Deanna
I like to just soak up the sun and move my body, go hiking, kayaking, anything that’s outside, and getting fresh air. And for you, you’re never really were interested in that at all. If I were to ask you what your ideal day would be, what would you say?
Joe Arrigo
It would just be sitting reading a book all day. Ideally, it’d be raining outside and it’d be cozy, and I’d be inside next to a fire.
Deanna
This is how I finally came to understand why you want to be home and read all the time, is that knowledge is power for you. And you can’t ever get it all, you’re always trying to get more and more you’re in search of that. And anything that gets in the way of you obtaining more knowledge just seems frivolous.
Joe Arrigo
It does seem frivolous. But when I coach INTJ, or NT types, I’ve realized the value of experience that is not directly related to knowledge, like book knowledge. You need the knowledge of different environments, different sensory experiences. So this has been one of my biggest goals is to break out of the mindset that I if I’m not acquiring textual knowledge, that’s a bad thing. It’s not a bad thing. How do you think we get along so well, then?
Deanna
I think it’s because we’re so independent. I always tell people being married to you is like taking care of a very old cat, as I can just, I can leave all day and leave you at home all day and not feel guilty. Because I know that you’re just gonna pick up a book, you’ll entertain yourself. Because we’re both independent, we can give each other space, and then come back together.
I feel like you’re really good at having faith, like you just know this thing is gonna work out. Whereas for me, I’m always worrying about what’s gonna go wrong. And I’m always sitting around thinking, how can I mitigate it? Does it excite you if you get to do things you’ve never seen before? For me, it worries me, makes me nervous.
Joe Arrigo
Yeah, but it’s not one of my best functions, either, which is Extraverted Intuition, Ne, or what we could call Brainstorming. It’s fun, but I’m not good with scenarios that are outside of something I can see how this would end up.
But my worst trait is literally your best trait, which is Introverted Sensing (Si) or Memory. People that know me would say I can be very forgetful about certain details that we’ve just talked about. That’s where you come in… “Don’t forget” or “Remember last time you tried that?” Thus the ISTJ makes very few mistakes, or rather, does not repeat past mistakes.
Deanna
My memory is practically etched in stone. Like you said, it’s linked to my sensing and my emotions and if something made me feel a certain way, I can remember that, and I’ll never do it again or I’ll always do it from now on.
Joe Arrigo
Introverted sensation is very keenly aware of the sensations within the body. Whereas me an INTJ, I could say, push through being hungry. I’m not going to focus on my internal self, because I’m pushing through to my goal, which is kind of like the laser focus of the INTJ.
Whereas you’re really good at knowing where you’re at internally, we neglect all internal feeling for goals we’ve set, whether they’re realistic or fantasy land goals. So as an ISTJ, Deanna, what is some advice you can give to the audience for dating or being married to an INTJ?
Deanna
You have to be able to give them so much space. Give them space to do all their thinking and let them be independent. If you’re someone that is codependent it probably won’t work being married to an INTJ. I feel like it’s kind of your duty as their spouse or their significant other, to bring them back down to earth.
Literally pull them back down to earth and be like, ‘Hey, get out of your head,.’ Take them on a walk. “Hey, do you see those birds over there? Look how small they are? Do you hear them chirping? See the flowers?” Get them to develop their sensing abilities. Because they’re always in their head.
Joe Arrigo
Yeah! Extraverted Sensing (Se) is what the INTJ is really neglectful of. It’s the actual experiential, what-is-happening-in-front-of-your-face-right-now aspect. When we’re on a walk, my wife will point out something like, “Don’t you hear the birds…Look at that pretty flower.”
If you’re walking by something that’s very colorful, and you are thinking about the next 10 years, are going to be crazy, that’s probably not the best thing for you to be doing at that time. Especially when you’re in nature seeing something beautiful, you gotta be focused on what is in front of you. So yes, that is a very good point there.
Deanna
If you’re going to be married to an INTJ, don’t tell them what they should be doing. That really, really bothers them. I try to avoid that. But just realize, they can see the future so much, that it’s almost insulting to tell them, ‘you should be doing this. It’s like, ‘No, I’m gonna follow my intuition, I’ve got this.” Don’t tell them what they should be doing.
Joe Arrigo
That’s really interesting. Because we both have Extraverted Thinking (Te)— Action, Effectiveness, whatever you want to call it — in our second slot. I want… what’s the best thing? What’s the most direct? What’s the action I can take now to do that thing I’m thinking of? But it’s totally used in a very different way. When I come to you with an idea, your first thought is, ‘Joe’s coming to me with something I need to solve.’ And it’s not always the case. I’m asking you just to talk with me about it. But you’re looking at this as a puzzle, and are going to give your input.
Deanna
I instantly jumped to the details of how to fix it right right away, and you’re like, “Hey, I just want to talk about my big ideas with you.” So, to find that delicate balance is kind of tough. I would say the last advice, if you’re going to choose to marry an INTJ, you have to realize that a lot of times your job is just to be their anchor, their support system.
Because they like to think about all these big ideas, they might be implementing a lot of outside-the-box things that I’ve never seen that before. And that makes me uncomfortable! And so if you’re going to be married to an INTJ, or date an INTJ, be comfortable with then operating that way, because they’re going to keep at it.
Joe Arrigo
One thing that someone dating an INTJ can learn to develop is to humor them. You don’t necessarily have to believe 100% in their conspiracy ideas, but you have to be like, ‘Okay, well, I guess I could see that… Yeah, like, tell me a little bit more.” You don’t have to always be like pushing back against them. “Can’t I just tell you my crazy idea?”
Deanna
And also just don’t just put their ideas out like a fire, right? That won’t work. You know, that’s not what they want at all.
Joe Arrigo
Right. I think that’s where the arrogance comes in with the INTJ. The idea of, “you just can’t understand me”, which turns to, “no one can understand me, only I can understand myself.” And then you get into this ivory tower of hyper-intellectualism.
Deanna
Yeah. So just find a spouse that’ll anchor you!
To book me for an MBTI session or learn more about me, find me here:
Interview with AsuraPsych – Edited for time and flow
Joe Arrigo
In Western society, we seem to have, in my mind, a hierarchy of types. And basically what I’m saying is that those that succeed, make the most money, rise to the top of corporations, the government, really lean heavily into extroverted thinking or Te. But as a thought experiment, what do you think society would look like if we just inverted that pyramid? So we’d have our introverted feelers (Fi) at the top, and extroverted thinkers (Te) in a different spot. How would it look? I’d love to have another INTJ run wild with that.
AsuraPsych
I think you can almost see that when you look at certain countries like Sweden, for example, are very introverted by nature. I think a lot of those countries tend to focus more on things like culture, because they’re, their support systems support them enough so that they don’t have to be in competition with each other. And people who are in fields like art and music and production can succeed more easily, without being detrimental to them to not do so. Because I think like in Western societies, it’s detrimental to attempt to be some sort of artists because the society doesn’t provide ways for them to be living by doing so.
Joe Arrigo
I’ve never thought about extroverted thinking in the sense of like, the first thing that comes to mind is NOT competition. But I guess, thinking the way you said it, it sort of just naturally lends itself to competition.
AsuraPsych
I think the extroverted thinkers are the ones who are the most aware of general competence hierarchies, and they are the ones who want to climb them if possible, especially the Te doms. You look at Te dom’s, and they’re the ones racing to get promotions at work. And there is value there in like, you know, you get more money, and there’s stuff like that, but I think the rank and achievement of it, is what pushes them as well.
Joe Arrigo
Okay, then success in the Fi dominant is…? I mean, it would be hard to define success broadly across society with Fi would it not?
AsuraPsych
Right. And because I think the thing you notice with Fi alot is they tend to have this attitude of ‘I respect my way of doing things when it comes to like, right and wrong.’ They, for the most part, respect other people’s ways of doing things as long as it’s not interrupting their way of doing things.
Joe Arrigo
In my coaching I’ve not coached any ISFPs or INFPs. Closest is ENFP. They do tend to really gravitate towards personal development, things like that. So it’s I’ve not dealt with an Fi dom yet. Have you?
AsuraPsych
Yeah, I find that INFPs are one of my more frequent types I’ve worked with– maybe one or two ISFPs. But their problems are always very similar in my experience, and it’s that they have this kind of unconscious value for extroverted thinking, but they really struggle to do it. And an extremely common thing is they try to start their own businesses because they think they need to achieve success. And then they’re miserable. ‘I don’t want to be in this business, I’m not happy with what I’m doing.’ And it’s like, well, what would you be doing if you could do anything you want?
Joe Arrigo
As we know, there are tons of different models within the MBTI community. We have cognitive functions model, Beebe model, socionics, objective personality, Keirsey Temperaments. What is the model that you personally follow?
AsuraPsych
It is a little bit of a Frankenstein’s monster as much as I wish it wasn’t because on a personal level, I like the idea of Jung’s Eight Types the most, because I personally think of the second and third function as the two auxiliary functions instead of the auxiliary and the tertiary. But I think that the Briggs 16 types is the best way to classify the types. And it’s just the one that everyone knows at this point. In the terms of the theory, I like Jung’s original work, but in terms of the classification, I very much like the Briggs 16 types.
Joe Arrigo
How do you keep coming up with content that you find interesting, but also that your audience is also going to be interested in?
AsuraPsych
I do have video suggestions like from my Patreon, people can suggest videos. And then in my Discord server, I have a place where people can suggest videos. I’m very much a spark of madness type of person, when it comes to my ideas. Having the idea I need to do something with it before I run out of time or just sits there for too long. So if I have those ideas, I want to make the video as soon as possible, I want to do something with it.
Joe Arrigo
So you and I would be considered part of the New Guard. What are we supposed to do to make MBTI attractive? Because it’s kind of viewed as like, old? “Oh, I’ve done that test… I did it 20 times before…we’ve had so many people come into our company and do it…” So what are we supposed to do about that?
AsuraPsych
I’ve been pushing for this idea that I don’t think that MBTI needs to be seen as a science to be valid. I love to describe MBTI or just personality typology in general as a ‘philosophy of psychology’ instead of a science of psychology. And I think that’s how Jung viewed it as well. He was saying that this is the way in which humans most likely conceptualize the things that they interact with, how they process information, etc. And then we can better understand ourselves and others through these models of understanding.
Big Five is great, great that it’s scientific, it’s quantitative. What does it do for you? You know, that’s where it ends. What is Big Five doing for you as an individual? Have you changed your personality or behavior because of Big Five? 90% of people are going to say no, just because it doesn’t really do the same things that MBTI does.
I think it was harmful for psychology in the long run, because we’ve gotten to the point where we forgot that psychology is about humans. And if we look at psychiatry, compared to psychology, psychiatry, is more along the lines of, ‘well, this thing worked for 78% of people. So therefore, if you have this issue, we’re going to use x solution because it worked for 78% of people.’ The other 22% of people are out of luck.
Joe Arrigo
That is a tragedy! So Asura, I could ask you to describe yourself and you’d probably say: analytical, conceptual, more of a wallflower, stuff like that. And then I’d say, ‘Well, the way that I would classify that is INTJ. Then people go, “No, I’m not! I’m an ESFP, or I can be anything I want, I don’t like these labels!!” But like, if you describe your friend over there, you would assign labels.
AsuraPsych
We categorize everyone. That’s just how we work as humans.
Joe Arrigo
So then I try to go well, there is a 16 type model that also labels that as well… What’s wrong with that? And they go, “I don’t want to be labeled.” We have this illogical fear of being in a certain category.
AsuraPsych
Right? And it’s so weird, especially because in the past two or three years, things like race and identity have become so huge because now we’re labeling everything! And people still talk about MBTI like they’re afraid of having a label. There’s a middle ground somewhere where you don’t have to BE the label. But it’s there to help you in some aspect.
Joe Arrigo
I’m actually just gonna lean into the box and say, “Yes it’s a box, but it’s a 5000 square mile box and it will take you your entire life to navigate – as Jung said – you’ll never integrate all the parts of your personality so don’t worry about being in this ‘box.'”
AsuraPsych
I think you could go through life without Type just fine, but I think it is such a useful tool for people who do use it and find out the right ways to use it.
Joe Arrigo
Interestingly I don’t think I know more than one ESFP. I think they’re rare. But apparently, INTJ is more rare, but I don’t come across ESFPs ever.
AsuraPsych
Yeah, I actually have an opinion on this. I think that when they were norming the MBTI studies, it was done before the internet was in place. And therefore, there were less intuitives involved in the kind of process of when they were going out interacting with individuals. Now intuitives are a dime a dozen, you can’t walk five feet without running into them. And they think that they’re only 30% of the population, I think they probably are closer to 40-45%. And that the difference nearly as big as people think.
Joe Arrigo
That’s a hot take! When I present type at a very high level, I always use what David Keirsey observed which was around 75/25 Intuitive vs Sensing, as it was though we mostly have a Sensor society.. So you’re saying it’s more like 60/40, or even higher?
AsuraPsych
Yeah, I just think that the intuitives, back then, they were more reclusive in their interests, essentially. But now the internet exists. And it’s no longer weird to be weird. So they come out of their cages, and they’re happy to show themselves and do things and interact with others, and they have a safe place to do so. And it’s one of those things where like, I do believe that the intuitives are a little bit more rare.
From like an evolutionary standpoint, that makes sense. Because you know, the intuitives are the ones who are going to be more risky are going to leave camp to go looking for new things to do and they’re more likely to get eaten by bear. But now that we have things like the internet, it’s no longer dangerous to be intuitive.
Joe Arrigo
Asura, take it easy, and I appreciate you coming on the show.
